Working ability in Deerhounds

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9 years 9 months ago #19548 by chook
chook replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Murph the Magnificent
i have to say something, about what you said about hunters being sick,
a true hunter dosent class it as sport, all quary is respected and always will be
for most its a job - for some its a way of living,
most if not all what is caught is put either on the table or
food for the dogs, i would love to go out and catch my own dinner,
than buy it off the supermarket shelfs, not long ago a few of us met up for our weekend walk,
with in seconds the dogs had 2 rabbits, both were suffering verry badley with mixi,
the rabbits were dispatched with in seconds, not by the dogs but by us,
the dogs enjoyed there dinner that day,
hunting allows us to weed out the week and sick, it allows us to minamise disease
thus alowing more healthy stock to thrive.

I think over the years the origanal deerhound has almost dissapered,
if you look at some of the paintings or pictures from years gone by,
most look nothing like the deerhound we have today, over years they will ivolve(sp)
in to what it is we want.
i have to admit layla would probably run away screeming if a deer approched her,
she has no pray drive at all, lure coursing she go's nuts for, but show her anything else
and shes not a clue, i was given a rabbit skin at the weekend, so as i could make a dummy for the dogs, i find them better for training, when i offered it layla, she tried to burry it.

Jane
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9 years 9 months ago #19549 by verenav
verenav replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Very nice your Layla - one of my ( so far ) best 2 lurecoursers also has no ideas about hunting - she will get excited about scents and thus alert the others , but hunting herself , no way ( ok , she "took" many , many mice ....) . The best she came up with was once running after and - to my huge dismay up to and side by side with - a bearcup trying to escape - I swear she thought it was a Rottweiler ( same markings and seize and similar movements ) - the other 3 were chasing coyotes somewhere and I ran to my car as fast as I could , expecting momma bear to come and defend her baby...luckily nothing happened , the bear climbed a tree and I got all dogs back , unharmed .
I once in a while put a coyotetail ( I bought them ! ) on the lure to get them a bit more excited - the girl mentioned before is totally turned off by that , she is/was addicted to plastic bags ( which made her top lurecoursing deerhound in Canada for 3 years - now she has retired ) . On the other hand , my very best huntress , who won't give up and grabbed a bear and a coyote ( with different results , though both escaped ) couldn't care less for the lure - when I try showing it to her she will just get totally excited and be scanning the field for some form of wildlife ( yes , I do point coyote and deer out to my girls at times ) . She is out of a multi generation show line (2 times a bit of Aussie blood infused ) , sister to the one who cornered the boar in Germany - goes to show , when breeders have brains + brawn their dogs have , too ! Not that I do think my non huntress has no brain at all , she just uses it for very different things - not much brawn in her though ....
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9 years 9 months ago #19558 by Murph the Magnificent
Murph the Magnificent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds

Murph the Magnificent
i have to say something, about what you said about hunters being sick


I didn't say that. If you look back at my post you'll see what I said. Thanks.

Please remember that the people on this forum are not representative of the population of the UK. Deerhound owners are not found absolutely everywhere.
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9 years 9 months ago #19559 by chook
chook replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Murph the Magnificent wrote:

Murph the Magnificent
i have to say something, about what you said about hunters being sick


I didn't say that. If you look back at my post you'll see what I said. Thanks.

Please remember that the people on this forum are not representative of the population of the UK. Deerhound owners are not found absolutely everywhere.


Sorry i appoligise, i admit i didnt read it properly,
it was 3 in the morning,

nope we are not representative of the population of the UK,
but we do have a voice and are able to vote,
im not only a deerhound owner, but one of the many hound owners out there.

Jane
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9 years 9 months ago #19563 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Ardneish wrote:

Handsome is as handsome does!
If a deerhound is not built correctly it will be a poor worker subject to injury, when judging construction is paramount to me,they must have it there to power up a Scottish hill, they have to be built to do it for me, and I don't give a hoot who owns it, who bred it, who shows it, who is judging later in the year yada yada yada there to me is only one person I have to please when judging and thats " Me " and they have to be built correctly , its the hound and the hound only that deserves a place ( I owe it to deerhounds you see for everything they have given me, I owe it when judging to keep them true and I owe it to my mentors in the breed now sadly in the happy hunting grounds to remember all I learnt from them ) I also love to see a "keen eye" which tells me quite a bit about their nature.

There should be no difference between a so called working bred deerhound and a show deerhound to me there is only one "Scottish Deerhound" full stop.

I remember as Sid does hounds that had won a 32 coursing stake, going into the ring a few days later to win the ticket and BOB

:woohoo: Hurrah!!! There is hope out there. What a fab post{others have also made fab posts} if there are judges like this out there still what is there to worry about??
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9 years 9 months ago #19564 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
This sums up what most of us before your post have already commented on. It's precisely what breeders such as Noble, Cassels, and Barret a.o. would have said or say. If only ALL judges and breeders would take notice and follow up on this.
Having said this I do think it's a shame that hunting with our hounds is forbidden is most countries (in Europe that is). The chase is a sight to behold!
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9 years 9 months ago #19565 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
<<what is there to worry about??>>

The Illusion of Permanence.
Maybe that's worth worrying about.

Remember what Senex wrote about the size of Deerhounds in his day. The difference between a true working, deer-coursing, Deerhound, and a show Deerhound. He then went on to say this
"... I have stated that 28in. was a good size for deerhound - by that I meant for work; for the show bench an inch or so higher might do, but avoid too much in that quarter, as then, in the majority of cases a weak loin is the result. ..."
I might add personally to that, the dog (we are talking about males) will then certainly be too big to work properly in its original terrain, and it will most likely be coarse, both of which the original breed standard emphatically warned against.

Senex wrote about the Deerhound at the close of the coursing era; Weston Bell went on to describe the new Deerhound, the larger, show breed, as the Modern Deerhound.

We are now in the era of the even larger Deerhound, over thirty inches - up to about 33+, which we might term as the Post Modern Deerhound.

Which one is the "true Deerhound"? - there has been no permanence in type. The original, the true working Deerhound has long gone.
It's worth reading Annette Pink's history of the club, again, to see the red thread in that account of the real worry about size, i.e. loss of type.

Hare coursing, lure coursing help - mainly in demonstrating a minimum of athletic ability and the desire to chase. However they relate to true deer coursing in the same way as athletics relates to warfare.

It is one of my greatest regrets that hare coursing, arguably the noblest field sport: fur on fur, it is the work, not the kill, that counts has been the victim of the ban on hunting with dogs in the UK. Do your utmost to re-instate it.

Good luck!
Richard
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9 years 9 months ago #19567 by Chon Dubh
Chon Dubh replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:

Ardneish wrote:

Handsome is as handsome does!
If a deerhound is not built correctly it will be a poor worker subject to injury, when judging construction is paramount to me,they must have it there to power up a Scottish hill, they have to be built to do it for me, and I don't give a hoot who owns it, who bred it, who shows it, who is judging later in the year yada yada yada there to me is only one person I have to please when judging and thats " Me " and they have to be built correctly , its the hound and the hound only that deserves a place ( I owe it to deerhounds you see for everything they have given me, I owe it when judging to keep them true and I owe it to my mentors in the breed now sadly in the happy hunting grounds to remember all I learnt from them ) I also love to see a "keen eye" which tells me quite a bit about their nature.

There should be no difference between a so called working bred deerhound and a show deerhound to me there is only one "Scottish Deerhound" full stop.

I remember as Sid does hounds that had won a 32 coursing stake, going into the ring a few days later to win the ticket and BOB

:woohoo: Hurrah!!! There is hope out there. What a fab post{others have also made fab posts} if there are judges like this out there still what is there to worry about??

Couldn't agree more.I said in a previous post that i would hate to see two "types" of Deerhound.Ardneish's excellent post (and Sids earlier) gives me much hope for the future.
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9 years 9 months ago #19568 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
In Richard's recent post he makes some interesting points. Do'es anyone know where to find the info that he cites or even what the timescales of the changes he refers to are?
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9 years 9 months ago #19569 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Richard

During the last century many of the old paintings, etchings etc are in fact cross breed deerhounds eg lurchers the keepers at the time did sometimes prefer to cross out to the collie/greyhound etc. I have seen a photo of the “Last working pack of Deerhounds” and the majority of them had indeed been crossed out a couple did look pure. An another example could be present day Minkhounds crossing the foxhound out to the otterhound better noses and ability to work in water.

I think as long as height is proportionate to width, spring of rib strength on the rear bone and substance then its ok

However when height produces poor angulations both in the front assembly, ( upright shoulder and upper arm ) stifle second thigh, slab ribbing and little heart and lung room then there is a problem this hound in my view could not work without injury and would be poor as a worker. And I really do not like to see it one little bit.


My own hounds have pulled down a fallow deer( not intentional )but I have a lot of deer around here, now the one hound was a very strongly built bitch at 31 inches the other a dog hound at 32, they also dispatched it before I could get up the hill into the woods. Ch Ardkinglas Val who lived wild on the moor for 3 months managed to feed herself and from memory she would have been around 31 inches with substance curves and the right attitude ( sid correct me if I am wrong).

If a deerhound is small e.g. 28 inches ( perfectly acceptable within the standard) and has substance good angulations etc then great if there made better than a tall hound they should be placed in front of it.


But please do not think for one moment that present day Scottish Deerhounds cannot do the job they were bred to do because I know for a fact they can ,not just my hounds but I know of plenty of others that are up to the job. And of course others that are not as I have said so many times before “handsome is as handsome does”.


Hairy are you a club member? we have some great books in the club libray that can be borrowed
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9 years 9 months ago - 9 years 9 months ago #19571 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Knew I had it! Here's the photograph of the last working pack. Waltraud's vet, whose great uncle is the chap in the photograph, lent it to her and she sent it to me years ago.

Here's the caption: Last Working Pack of Deerhounds in Scotland, taken in 1890, at Doune Cottage on Blackwater Estate, Glenfiddich, Banffshire, with their houndsman Mr J Anderson.[file]
Here's the caption: Last Working Pack of Deerhounds in Scotland,
taken in 1890, at Doune Cottage on Blackwater Estate, Glenfiddich,
Banffshire, with their houndsman Mr J Anderson.
Last Edit: 9 years 9 months ago by Sid.
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9 years 9 months ago - 9 years 9 months ago #19572 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Sid wrote:

Knew I had it! Here's the photograph of the last working pack. Waltraud's vet, whose great uncle is the chap in the photograph, lent it to her and she sent it to me years ago.

Here's the caption: Last Working Pack of Deerhounds in Scotland, taken in 1890, at Doune Cottage on Blackwater Estate, Glenfiddich, Banffshire, with their houndsman Mr J Anderson.[/quote] [b]Damn! Rob, is there any way of loading a pdf file? It's the only format I've got the photograph in, although I'm away to try clever things with Photoshop.[/b] Tries again: [img]http://www.scottish-deerhound.com/media/kunena/attachments/legacy/images/Last_Working_Deerhound_Pack.jpg[/img] Yay![file]
Here's the caption: Last Working Pack of Deerhounds in Scotland,
taken in 1890, at Doune Cottage on Blackwater Estate, Glenfiddich,
Banffshire, with their houndsman Mr J Anderson.


Damn! Rob, is there any way of loading a pdf file? It's the only format I've got the photograph in, although I'm away to try clever things with Photoshop.

Tries again:

Yay!
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9 years 9 months ago #19573 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Hello Ardneish. No I'm not a club member I got my first Deerhound from the gypsies {tied to a post and the poorest looking dog I have ever seen}and started to feed him up and work him when he was ready.Now he's 2 and I havent looked back since. He was my first running dog but what an eye opener... no wonder people love these primitive dogs...
How come your dog lived wild without being shot? I had 2 borders that went awol and were shot as sheep killers 9 days later...
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9 years 9 months ago #19574 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
No one would have dared shoot one of Miss Noble's hounds! The Nobles owned the estate that the hound went AWOL on, so that was never an issue. There are photographs of Val on the Club site - look at the champions - and probably in old Deerhound Club newsletters. She was a substantial lassie, right enough.
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9 years 9 months ago #19576 by Teratyke
Teratyke replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Sid wrote:

Damn! Rob, is there any way of loading a pdf file? It's the only format I've got the photograph in, although I'm away to try clever things with Photoshop.

Hi Sid - you found away, well done. I've enabled uploads of pdf's now so if there is anything else in the document besides the picure then you should now be able to upload. Thanks, and great photo by the way.
Rob
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9 years 9 months ago - 9 years 9 months ago #19578 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Cheers, Rob. I just used Photoshop to save it as a jpg and that worked nicely. Good to know that we can upload pdf files, though.
Last Edit: 9 years 9 months ago by Sid.
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9 years 9 months ago #19579 by farnorth
farnorth replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
That is a really lovely photo Sid its a pity we cant legally have packs that work now
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9 years 9 months ago #19581 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
True that is a photo to treasure for the future. Is that the Ms Noble mentioned in the Fletton Towers article?
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9 years 9 months ago #19582 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
<<find the info that he cites or even what the timescales of the changes he refers to are?>>

Senex in Dalziel's British Dogs etc. circa 1879
Weston Bell 1892
Ist official breed standard also 1892 height of dogs 28-30", or even more if there be symmetry without coarseness, but which is rare.
Somewhere around 1914 (the UK club has lost the minutes) the points system of judging was discarded, height jumps: from 30-32" or even more if there be symmetry without coarseness, but which is rare
Compare that to the modern UK standard.
Ever since that time from the 20's through the 50's to the 80's the growth in height has been discussed with varying degrees of warning. There has been a collective amnesia in the club about the correct stature of the true efficient hunting Deerhound. Those that have raised serious, well based questions on the matter, for instance with the request to curtail the height description in the standard have not always been fairly or justly answered.

A word about the pack of Deerhounds - this dates from after the era of coursing with one or two two Deerhounds. It is very much from the time of the 'modern' rifle. True coursing is simply not done with a pack of hounds.

On "true type" and whether we still have it - any dog/breed can chase and even exhaust a red deer (Charles St John circa 1878 writes about a bulldog doing just that), exaggerated, untypical show Greyhounds can actually catch hares; it doesn't mean they are as efficient or as good at it as their original antecedants - far from it.
As Arrian wrote on the difference between scent hounds and sighthounds: the former can catch hares despite their build, the latter thanks their build.

For further reading see the links at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sco...Further_reading
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9 years 9 months ago #19583 by fiddle
fiddle replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Sid wrote:

No one would have dared shoot one of Miss Noble's hounds! The Nobles owned the estate that the hound went AWOL on, so that was never an issue. There are photographs of Val on the Club site - look at the champions - and probably in old Deerhound Club newsletters. She was a substantial lassie, right enough.


Val is one of my all-time favourite, but it was not her that disappeared for several weeks, it was her mother, another fantastic Ardkinglas Campion – Idol.
It happen while I staid at Ardkinglas. Simon Harrow (Waterfield Deerhounds, he bred four litters two with A. Wilma and two with A. Helen an Idol daughter) arrived the other day and went with Miss Noble and some dogs. Simon wanted to learn more about Deerhounds; he had already one Deerhound from Miss Noble Ardkinglas Wilma.
When they came back Idol had disappeared No sign, nothing. Weeks later she came back and was in good shape. But on 15.000 acres are many places to hide……
This is a photo I took of Val – brings back happy memories!
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