Working ability in Deerhounds

More
9 years 3 months ago #19367 by Joerg Yoki
Joerg Yoki replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:

...Otherwise this great breed will become a shadow of it's former self and go the way of other breeds eg the GSD with it's hip problems (but looks good in the show ring) and others..


Hello hairybeasty,

By the German Shepherd Dog gives different lines, the show lines (with "fastback" )and the old "GDR"-lines in East Germany.

I´m not a fan from the "fastback"-GSD.

Link to pictures from the GDR(DDR)-lines (old lines)from the German Shepherd Dog:

images.google.de/images?h...ved=0CBwQsAQwAw

Best regrads
Joerg and Yoki
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago #19376 by Elise
Elise replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:

I suppose that what I am trying to say is that we all agree that working ability is important and should as far as possible be retained through breeding. Otherwise this great breed will become a shadow of it's former self and go the way of other breeds eg the GSD with it's hip problems (but looks good in the show ring) and others..
How do we stop this from happening and the question is do we care?


I think there are things that can be done. Some suggestions which I'm sure have been raised before are:

1. Judge education. It's vital that knowledge about working deerhound requirements are passed on to judges as to a large extent what 'style' of dog is awarded Championship Certificates dictate future trends and breeding.
2. People interested in working abilities need to also get into the show ring with their dogs and/or judge.
3. Continue to build on the lure coursing developments and potentially introduce a dual champion status. I've only read one article about the KC herding test that 'show' border collies now compete at for dual champion status, but it did seem to have a lot of positives.
Anyway just suggestions but I don't think it's all negative. Elise
The topic has been locked.
  • hairybeasty
  • hairybeasty's Avatar Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #19417 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Quite right Elise I don't think its all negative either.I have heard that the KC run dual championships for working gundogs but are under a lot of flak according to The Countrymans Weekly which for those of you who dont know is dedicated to lurchers ferrets and shooting including the relationships between them. Will read the article properly and quote at a later date.
People with working interests should get into the ring but forgive me for saying.. if its anything like the horse showing world if you dont know Mrs Ponsonby-Smythe or look right then you may as well go home. Never mind you might have travelled 5 hrs to get there by 9am... makes me sick.. but I agree in principle.
CiCoch said earlier in this discussion that a dog good at rabbiting is not a Deerhound so what is to be gained by lure coursing as a way of preserving this ancient breed?
As far as I can see the only way of preserving the Deerhound as a functional breed is to get the Hunting Act overturned... Discuss.....
Last Edit: 9 years 3 months ago by hairybeasty. Reason: spelling
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago #19433 by farnorth
farnorth replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
You would definitely have my vote
The topic has been locked.
  • Chon Dubh
  • Chon Dubh's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Under Graduate Boarder
  • Under Graduate Boarder
More
9 years 3 months ago #19440 by Chon Dubh
Chon Dubh replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:

As far as I can see the only way of preserving the Deerhound as a functional breed is to get the Hunting Act overturned... Discuss.....

Interesting topic........ As far as the hunting ban goes i have no strong views either way,but would an overturning of the ban really see the preservation of what some call the "old type" i.e. a functional hunting dog?.How many breeders/owners would hunt.I would imagine most Deerhounds are pet or show hounds and i guess many are in town environments,would they hunt with their hounds?.From what i have read of the history of Deerhounds,particularly in Scotland,the historians say the decline of the Deerhound as a hunter has been ongoing for at least 150 years,and has more to do with the use of the gun for hunting,rather than the introduction of the hunting ban.Opinions please.........
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago #19441 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I would agree with this view, Deerhounds have long been in decline as being use to hunt Deer in the UK. I have read many historical articles whose authors were of the view thaat the gun has caused the decline in the use of deerhounds in hunting Deer and that it was the show scene that has really rescued them from extinction.

I think that it is now inevitable that they will be mainly sustained as show dogs and pets. However in saying this I would hope that there is always a place somewhere where some, even if a minority, can continue hunting in the ways that they so excell.

Interestingly, only the other day whilst walking Ben in the nearby town of Whitchurch, I was stopped by a couple who admired Ben. We entered into a general discusion about the breed and they told me that they had once had a Deerhound that they rescued from a person who was about to shoot it as it was no good at hunting. They said that although the dog had no hunting instinct it took great joy in just running, at full speed, in the field next to their house. It is lucky for the breed that they do have such an appeal as pets otherwise they may have long been extinct.

Rob B
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #19444 by Nat
Nat replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:
As far as I can see the only way of preserving the Deerhound as a functional breed is to get the Hunting Act overturned...[/quote]





:laugh: Yes, perhaps we could lobby alongside the British Bulldog breeders, who could have bull-baiting made legal again to ensure the preservation of their breed as it was originally intended.... or the Neoploitan Mastiff breeders, who could once again train their dogs to run under enemy horses while wearing steel spikes to disembowel the horses... and the fighting breed enthusiasts would be over the moon to once again prove the worth of their dogs... and we could all have a tasty Chow Chow kebab while discussing our dog's prowess...

With the power of some current lobby groups, we will be lucky if we are even allowed to breed pedigree dogs in 5 years time, let alone participate in blood sports with them.

Glascu Deerhounds
Last Edit: 9 years 3 months ago by Nat.
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago #19445 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
You would have my vote as well.
I know a deerhound owner in Denmark who hunts with his hounds. He brings along a knife, so that when his hounds catch a roe or deer, he will be able to give the animal the coup de grace and reduce the suffering to a minimum, rather than allowing the dogs to tear the animal apart.
Would be an idea, except that some will argue (quite rightly I'm afraid) that there will be 'hunters' that actually enjoy the suffering...
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago #19468 by verenav
verenav replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I think , even no longer being allowed to hunt with deerhounds , we still should strive to breed mentally and physically sound dogs - I have seen huge differences with the deerhounds , mine and of friends , with whom I have hiked through the wilderness here . And , as deeply as I love them , some just also evoke " pity " in me , seing their ( more or less ) unsound bodies and so sensitive minds and being able to compare them with the happy go lucky , active and sound , sound , sound all over deerhounds . A breeder in Switzerland states on her website , that taking in a deerhound from a working line
( on lease for a litter ) opened her eyes for what a deerhound could also be and made her strive for the strong , strong temperament this girl showed .
The topic has been locked.
  • hairybeasty
  • hairybeasty's Avatar Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 3 months ago #19471 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Nat wrote:

This isn't going to win me any friends, but I feel that a Deehound without a strong prey-drive is just a shaggy grey dog.

A strong prey drive is part of the Deerhounds temperament. We must find a way to keep the prey-drive high in our breeding dogs, or the most integral part of our breed will be gone.

But a high prey-drive is what makes our breed what it is, and certainly the forebears of our breed hundreds of years ago would roll over in their graves if they knew we were breeding dogs without drive. A Deerhound without drive would not have seen it's first birthday back then!

Just trying to equate this post with your recent one.. :S
The topic has been locked.
  • hairybeasty
  • hairybeasty's Avatar Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 3 months ago #19473 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Chon Dubh wrote:

.. As far as the hunting ban goes i have no strong views but would an overturning of the ban really see the preservation of a functional hunting dog?.How many breeders/owners would hunt.I would imagine most Deerhounds are pet or show hounds ..the historians say the decline of the Deerhound as a hunter has been ongoing for at least 150 years,and has more to do with the use of the gun for hunting,rather than the introduction of the hunting ban.Opinions please.........

There's many on here who would say that in no way has their dog (or it's working ability) gone into any form of decline.. and that's due to ability being considered before breeding I feel.
Forgive me but of course the overturn of the Hunting ban would ensure at least a "hardcore" of ability that all breeders could exploit when the need arose... B)
The topic has been locked.
  • hairybeasty
  • hairybeasty's Avatar Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 3 months ago #19475 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Nat wrote:

hairybeasty wrote:
As far as I can see the only way of preserving the Deerhound as a functional breed is to get the Hunting Act overturned...

:laugh: Yes, perhaps we could lobby alongside the British Bulldog breeders, who could have bull-baiting made legal again to ensure the preservation of their breed as it was originally intended.... or the Neoploitan Mastiff breeders, who could once again train their dogs to run under enemy horses while wearing steel spikes to disembowel the horses... and the fighting breed enthusiasts would be over the moon to once again prove the worth of their dogs... and we could all have a tasty Chow Chow kebab while discussing our dog's prowess..[/quote]
:P I'm not talking about animals who are taught sick things by equally sick people I'm talking about hunting dogs doing what they do best...what comes naturally... :P
The topic has been locked.
  • Murph the Magnificent
  • Murph the Magnificent's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Graduate Boarder
  • Graduate Boarder
More
9 years 3 months ago #19477 by Murph the Magnificent
Murph the Magnificent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds

I'm not talking about animals who are taught sick things by equally sick people I'm talking about hunting dogs doing what they do best...what comes naturally...


This might not win me any friends here, but it's only right to say that this is all relative. The world has moved on, and hunting live animals with dogs for sport is "sick" in many (if not most) people's eyes in this country. Yes, they do this "naturally" but this doesn't make it right by society's standards.

There is NO WAY the ban is about to be overturned. Not now, not ever.

So, the bottom line is, how do we preserve the innate instincts of our beloved hounds? Is it crucial that we do so? If so, how crucial is it?

If you want to continue to have a strong line of hounds with "intact" prey drive then we simply do not breed for aesthetic conformity but for the ability to hunt, and simply do not breed from those who look nice but couldn't catch a cold.

However, this is simply untenable and probably rightly so - showing (NOT hunting) has kept the breed alive despite everything, and will continue to do so.
The topic has been locked.
  • Teratyke
  • Teratyke's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Is one ever enough?
More
9 years 3 months ago #19478 by Teratyke
Teratyke replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
:) I don’t see why we shouldn’t continue this thread – it’s interesting, but it’s one of those subjects that could go bad. It’s all about personal opinion and as long as its legal and it doesn’t incriminate or personally offend anyone then there is room for all opinions to be aired. So far, I should add, everything seems quite fine to me!

Sorry if I’m jumping in a bit quick, but I could do with a quiet weekend…
:unsure:
Thanks
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #19479 by verenav
verenav replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I wouldn't say that a physically sound/ fit to hunt deerhound doesn't look nice in the ring - just the opposite !There are several breeders out here in North America - and I am sure in Europe and every where else , too ! - who achieve this , even with purely show bred specimens .I personally am not that happy about overly tall , dainty boned ,overangulated rear and underangulated front , narrow , swan necked and flatfeeted show dogs with more or less stiff backs due to too much topline - sorry to sound that bad , never saw a deerhound I would not have found beautiful and loved basically - still , had to make the point . To me a functional hound ( or dog of whatever breed/kind ) is the most beautiful one ! Ok , even better , when they are in really good shape on top of that ....functional doesn't only mean ready/fit to hunt , but also to run and play , be less prone to injuries and and and - having both
" varieties " , I can only say , what a huge difference it makes for them and their quality of life . I do not hunt with my dogs btw , they just are off leash usually and can take off when they want . Will try to find a pic of a 10 year old male , whom I still see outstanding in functionality and thus beauty - in my eyes that is ....
Attachments:
Last Edit: 9 years 3 months ago by verenav.
The topic has been locked.
  • hairybeasty
  • hairybeasty's Avatar Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 3 months ago #19480 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
OK Teratyke I will pull the plug on this thread. I hope that we have all enjoyed the different views and discussions aired as I said at the beginning it was just a topic to get a discussion going and no animals were harmed during this production.....
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago #19482 by verenav
verenav replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
What does this mean- will the thread be deleted or just , basically " put on ice " ? It is/was a very interesting discussion I think and I might to reread or point it out to others , who are ineterested - so far not only no animals were harmed , but also no humans .......
The topic has been locked.
  • Teratyke
  • Teratyke's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Is one ever enough?
More
9 years 3 months ago #19483 by Teratyke
Teratyke replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:

OK Teratyke I will pull the plug on this thread. I hope that we have all enjoyed the different views and discussions aired as I said at the beginning it was just a topic to get a discussion going and no animals were harmed during this production.....


No plug pulling required hairybeasty! We need good threads. Just been somewhere similar to this before and it all went horribly wrong in the middle of the night, forum was like a bloodbath by the time we got the moderator out. :lol:
The topic has been locked.
  • Teratyke
  • Teratyke's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Is one ever enough?
More
9 years 3 months ago #19484 by Teratyke
Teratyke replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
verenav wrote:

What does this mean- will the thread be deleted or just , basically " put on ice " ? It is/was a very interesting discussion I think and I might to reread or point it out to others , who are ineterested - so far not only no animals were harmed , but also no humans .......

Hi Verenav
No nothing is happening to the thread, its fine as it is. Please continue. I just put in a comment as I'm just off to bed and I was trying to be pro-active (I've been caught out in the past for not posting sooner)!
Thanks
Rob
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 3 months ago #19485 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Murph the Magnificent wrote:

I'm not talking about animals who are taught sick things by equally sick people I'm talking about hunting dogs doing what they do best...what comes naturally...


This might not win me any friends here, but it's only right to say that this is all relative. The world has moved on, and hunting live animals with dogs for sport is "sick" in many (if not most) people's eyes in this country. Yes, they do this "naturally" but this doesn't make it right by society's standards.

There is NO WAY the ban is about to be overturned. Not now, not ever.

So, the bottom line is, how do we preserve the innate instincts of our beloved hounds? Is it crucial that we do so? If so, how crucial is it?

If you want to continue to have a strong line of hounds with "intact" prey drive then we simply do not breed for aesthetic conformity but for the ability to hunt, and simply do not breed from those who look nice but couldn't catch a cold.

However, this is simply untenable and probably rightly so - showing (NOT hunting) has kept the breed alive despite everything, and will continue to do so.


I totally agree with this as I stated in my earlier post. We may not like the situation but we have to deal with it "as is". The future of the Hounds is in the show ring and as pets. The best we can do is give them plenty of opportunities to retain as many characteristics as they can by hunting legal quarry (rabbits, squirrels) and lure coursing.

Things may still be different in other countries but in the UK we have to deal with the situation as it is.

Rob B
The topic has been locked.
Moderators: Joerg Yoki
Time to create page: 0.615 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum