Working ability in Deerhounds

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9 years 6 months ago #20373 by Ironstone
Ironstone replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Robb wrote:

As my final post I'd just like to say that I do think that its important to preserve "fit for purpose" in the breed, however I think that its even more important to preserve the Breed. I heard that the KC regard Deerhounds as a threatened breed and after doing some research estimate that there are probably in the order of 2000 registered dogs alive today in the UK. Out of these how many are used to breed from, say 300? Many of these will be quite closely related so we don't really have a masive Gene pool to allow a change of the breed standard to exclude larger dogs.

If we placed a height limit of say 28" then how many would we be left with to breed from?

I think that priority must be to preserve this wonderful breed.


Your worries about a limited gene pool are well founded Robb because as far as numbers go Deerhounds truly are a threatened breed. In Canada, for example, the CKC registers only around three litters a year, sometimes none! How's that for limited numbers?

I have a question that keeps coming to mind. Several members of this site have alluded to a danger that purebred breeding of dogs may not be allowed at all in the future - something having to do with legislation? What's that about? Does it have to do with that BBC documentary about horrible breeding practices (I still feel sick over those poor little Cavalier King Charles Spaniels with the too small skulls :( )

Is that the source of this worry, or has the debate taken off in the UK?

BTW, for what it's worth, all things being equal, I like the big deerhounds! :P

Ironstone Deerhounds
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9 years 6 months ago #20376 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Yes, as a result of the BBC documentary a government lead inquiry was instigated into the state of Pedigree dogs. The inquiry is likely to make many recommendations about the breeds. I am not sure that they will ban Pedigree dogs but they are certainly going to tighten up on the breeders.

A link to the enquiry is:

dogbreedinginquiry.com/

You will also find plenty on the BBC news site if you instigate a search.

Rob B
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9 years 6 months ago #20378 by Murph the Magnificent
Murph the Magnificent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
There's absolutely no chance there'll be a ban. I have no idea why people spread such nonsense. However, as Robb says there are likely to be tighter controls. My personal opinion is that the direction to the KC will be to tighten up their act or the government will legislate to bring punitive action against those they believe are advocating or promoting features or exaggerations in a breed which could be considered as detrimental to the soundness, health and wellbring of the dog.
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9 years 6 months ago #20380 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I didn't realise that the report has been published. Michael's right its just issues regarding Breeders and the dogs welfare. All in all it looks very positive. I suspect that the rumours were just breeders panicking.

Rob B
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9 years 6 months ago #20383 by Chon Dubh
Chon Dubh replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Murph the Magnificent wrote:

There's absolutely no chance there'll be a ban. I have no idea why people spread such nonsense. However, as Robb says there are likely to be tighter controls. My personal opinion is that the direction to the KC will be to tighten up their act or the government will legislate to bring punitive action against those they believe are advocating or promoting features or exaggerations in a breed which could be considered as detrimental to the soundness, health and wellbring of the dog.

I am of the same view,which is why it behoves all of us,breed club members,breeders and owners to ensure a healthy breed for the future.As Sid said earlier,health first and foremost.As much as we all love our hounds we are only custodians for the breed for those who will come after.
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9 years 6 months ago #20386 by Ironstone
Ironstone replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Thanks for this Robb and Murph. Will follow-up. Seems reasonable to want to be rid of oily breeders who participate in unethical practices. I take it the inquiry's focus is more on the characteristics of the breeds themselves and whether they are sound. As for example in head sizes being too big to birth, or skulls too small for brains, etc.

I wonder if it might be useful as well to examine so-called puppy farms. What constitutes a puppy farm? They are depicted in the media as horrible places that supply to pet stores, which I've no doubt many of them are. But what about the breeder of say, pomeranians, who keeps 30 or so in crates along her laundry room wall? She has a constant supply of purebred petstock poms for the public and yet hers is not a puppy farm... Seems definitions need tightening.

Hm, I've drifted off topic a bit. Consider my last comment merely food for thought. ;)

Ironstone Deerhounds
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9 years 6 months ago #20392 by chook
chook replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Ironstone wrote:

Thanks for this Robb and Murph. Will follow-up. Seems reasonable to want to be rid of oily breeders who participate in unethical practices. I take it the inquiry's focus is more on the characteristics of the breeds themselves and whether they are sound. As for example in head sizes being too big to birth, or skulls too small for brains, etc.

I wonder if it might be useful as well to examine so-called puppy farms. What constitutes a puppy farm? They are depicted in the media as horrible places that supply to pet stores, which I've no doubt many of them are. But what about the breeder of say, pomeranians, who keeps 30 or so in crates along her laundry room wall? She has a constant supply of purebred petstock poms for the public and yet hers is not a puppy farm... Seems definitions need tightening.

Hm, I've drifted off topic a bit. Consider my last comment merely food for thought. ;)


Sorry off topic, but you might be intrested in this,
any body who breeds 4 or more litters per year, is now classed as a puppy farmer.

www.dogmagazine.net/archi...gMagazineDotNet

tbh i think it should be lowered to 2-3 a year.

Jane
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9 years 6 months ago #20409 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Before I return to the beginning of this topic, I should emphasize that I love the deerhound, which is indeed a most perfect creature of heaven.
And this topic concerns the very essence of what makes a deerhound, therefore the discussion should concern us all, even those who would rather not like to read some of the things that has been touched upon by me and others.

I love this breed, but I am not blind to the dangers of pedigree breeding. The breed barrier rule has effectively led to a closed gene pool, hence the (many) hereditary diseases which affect the deerhound as well as many if not all other breeds. Whether the discovery of genetic markers and subsequent genetic counselling will help solve this, is doubtful, because genes appear to become unstable over time, so diseeases will recur in different form.
Going back to what I wrote earlier, however offensive this may be to some less enlightened subscribers to this forum, perhaps we should reconsider this obsessiveness with pedigrees altogether. It's unnatural after all, and, come to think of it, the Picts did not give it much thought either.
If we really are worried about deerhounds losing their working ability, than it's the deerhound in action we should care about, not its pedigree. The question remains: how to do this now that the hunting ban no longer allows us to test our hounds in action?

The answer may be that the deerhound too is an endangered species, as far as I know it even appears on the Unesco list. So politicians do have an obligation to preserve and protect it from extinction. Wouldn't that be ironic?
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9 years 6 months ago - 9 years 6 months ago #20426 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
It's when people start talking about racial purity I get really angry Quote Bonnie

I have only ever referred to the lack of purity in some hounds books and photo in historic data that was presented within this thread, and pointed interested members to the archives written by Captain Graham Graham who was and still is a highly respected authority on both the IW and Scottish Deerhound he was born in what you refer to as the “ Romantic age” he witnessed and documented the history and development of the Scottish Deerhound devoted his life to the Irish Wolfhound

www.irishwolfhoundarchive...rhounds1879.htm


you then stated

Quote because the romantics laid the foundation stones for the nazis, the fascists, the communists, (religious) fundamentalists, and, interestingly, nature conservationalists and animal activists.


Yes I found these comments Highly offensive as I do not regard myself simply because I mentioned purity of bloodlines (this is commonly used by country stock persons or you could say selective breeding) or members of my family alive in this so called period, of time along with Captain Graham as Nazis, fascists, communists, religious fundamentalists or nature conservationlists and animal activists




Bonnie Quote

However offensive this may be to some less enlightened subscribers to this forum

Again obviously another swipe directed at me, let me make this clear I will not tolerate any more assassinations on my character from you, I have more knowledge of Scottish Deerhounds, pedigree dogs, hunting and working ability, selective breeding of domestic stock than you have in your little finger. And I still have mentors within this breed and hunting people in the UK that I learn from , have the utmost respect for that also purebreed Scottish Deerhounds, working foxhounds, minkhounds, teckels, hunter horses, cleveland bays ( yes more purebred bloodlines going back many years selectively bred for purpose) domestic fowl, breeds of cattle etc etc all bred for purpose.

You have no idea how offensive I found your comments to mention the word Nazis and fascists on a thread that was about working ability in Deerhounds is horribly offensive to me. So I would politely ask you to stick to topic.


www.irishwolfhoundarchive...rhounds1879.htm
Last Edit: 9 years 6 months ago by Ardneish.
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9 years 6 months ago #20428 by Ironstone
Ironstone replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
chook wrote:

Ironstone wrote:

Thanks for this Robb and Murph. Will follow-up. Seems reasonable to want to be rid of oily breeders who participate in unethical practices. I take it the inquiry's focus is more on the characteristics of the breeds themselves and whether they are sound. As for example in head sizes being too big to birth, or skulls too small for brains, etc.

I wonder if it might be useful as well to examine so-called puppy farms. What constitutes a puppy farm? They are depicted in the media as horrible places that supply to pet stores, which I've no doubt many of them are. But what about the breeder of say, pomeranians, who keeps 30 or so in crates along her laundry room wall? She has a constant supply of purebred petstock poms for the public and yet hers is not a puppy farm... Seems definitions need tightening.

Hm, I've drifted off topic a bit. Consider my last comment merely food for thought. ;)


Sorry off topic, but you might be intrested in this,
any body who breeds 4 or more litters per year, is now classed as a puppy farmer.

www.dogmagazine.net/archi...gMagazineDotNet

tbh i think it should be lowered to 2-3 a year.


Interesting little article Chook. I see that Professor Sir Patrick Bateson's inquiry was far reaching indeed. Let's hope some good comes out of it.

On a more general note, I feel this thread has lost the plot entirely. Let it be known that as far as this site is concerned, Ardneish is my #1 Go-to person for straight-up information on deerhounds. Period. Kindly do not insult her. Seriously.

Ironstone Deerhounds
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9 years 6 months ago #20432 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
To put my face in here is a bad place to be so please consider the original post: sticky topic coming up.. but it's only a topic to get a discussion going.
This thread has had some wonderful contributions and some real pearls of wisdom.
Surely we owe it to those who have given their time and knowledge to finish the debate in an ordered and civil manner?
There may be things said that some might not like to hear but in order to make an ommelette you have to break some eggs.
Once again this was not the place that I thought we would be..
A proper conclusion is just over the hill.
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9 years 6 months ago #20435 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
As far as I can see it is the future of the Deerhound that we should be concerned with.
To my mind there are certain things to consider:
1. Height has been changed several times in the breed standard,each time getting further away from
the original purpose of the breed.
2. Deerhounds are no longer a working breed and so have become purely a show breed with no consideration given to "working ability" or "mental attitude".This will ultimately change the attributes of the breed.
3. Limited genepool may or may not draw closer any health problems.
4. Before the KC recognized "breeds" there was only "type".Fact.
5."Type" allowed crossbreeding along with it's benefits of health and "working ability".
6. We should all consider what we think makes up the "essence" of what a Deerhound should be and
the best way to conserve it. Otherwise we will be sorry and the Deerhound even more so.

Now...if any one wants to debate sensibly about the future of this breed then let's hear it other wise we can be led like sheep to god knows where...
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9 years 6 months ago #20454 by Teratyke
Teratyke replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Thanks hairybeasty this has been a great (if at times troubled) thread!
I think it opens up a range of issues, but I doubt anything more can be said here than hasn't already been said. I would hate to have to remove this thread at this stage and so I've decided to lock it.
Any further discussions can take place in new threads that specifically relate to the issues they raise. If there is genuinely more to be said here then I will unlock the thread - queries by PM.
Thank you all
Rob
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