Working ability in Deerhounds

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9 years 8 months ago #20242 by mysdeerie
mysdeerie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Sorry Bodhranlady and Robb, I don’t have anything usefull to say about wolves I’ve been musing over previous posts.

“said it was a prophecy because what i saw on the rings (and apparently there is the-crème-de-la-crème on them), and simply or honestly in the litters, correspond absolutly to this old caution. Of course there are some wonderful deerhounds actually, but how many "strange-deerhounds" (to be correct...) you have for a good one?
The quality of a breed need to be evaluate on the whole and not on a fringe of champions. And it is why i think the breed is on a wrong way, too many bad constructions, too many health problems, growth problems, and for the persons who do sport with hounds, low limited performances (speed, agility, endurance), and not a long "sport-longevity".
The affirmation: -"If a deerhound is small e.g. 28 inches ( perfectly acceptable within the standard) and has substance good angulations etc then great if there made better than a tall hound they should be placed in front of it." is an easy answer to a treacherous statement which finally compare a good dog to a less good one. I would like to know the answer about the jugement of two quasi-perfect deerhounds, one 28in height dog and one 33 heigth dog” ….Florent said

A grim picture Florent, but I think reflects the real worry of some here. The bar needs to be set higher for as you say there are many, many deerhounds that would not meet the standard and only a select few that are as you say the “fringe of champions.” The dogs we are concerned about – bad construction, health problems etc are no less valuable as pets than the champions make no mistake, it is the future of the breed & its soundness we are concerned with.

There is some really good research being done on Deerhound disease and health conditions & I’m dreaming here but….. the 1st World Deerhound Symposium on Genetics, Breeding and Health sponsored by ?? to be held every ? 3 years lets say in a different country where representatives of the governing bodies ie. UK Deerhound club, Scottish Deerhound Club of America would share, debate and make proposals which would then be referred to the membership for vote. Is a breed sanctioned out-cross in the future?

Lynn Robb of Tannochbrae is an example of dedication to furthering the best interests of the breed; here is a small portion of her spreadsheet available on her website which would be of great benefit to the community as a whole if open and honest records were kept to aid the breed as a whole. www.tannochbrae.org/

Must get away from this computer, I’m done for a bit Cheers all.
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9 years 8 months ago #20243 by mysdeerie
mysdeerie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Spreadsheet didn't show go to Tannochbrae & look under Health for detailed birth, health & death info on all her dogs
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9 years 8 months ago #20244 by houndy
houndy replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I have not got the level of knowledge to join this debate but I would just like to say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and am so impressed with the key contributors knowledge about deerhounds and genetics - total respect!!
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9 years 8 months ago #20246 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Bodhranlady wrote:

So far as genes mutating over time that has been happening with the human species and it appears that the main genetic problems are in Europeans/White Americans where the genepool is very narrow when compared to Africa. It is estimated that the white populations of this planet are descended from barely 100 original African individuals. Genetically the African population is in far better shape. If a European mates with an African then their offspring are genetically richer and potentially healthier as there are fewer recessive genes in their makeup.

Robb, I'll say a couple things here :- 1) sickle-cell anaemia: 2)thalassaemia. What is your evidence for what you say? I would assert that the African population may be *more* inbred due to lack of mobility.


It's a fact that there is far more genetic diversity in the african population. You will always find certain conditions in any gene pool, there are far more in the European population. Anyway I thought that sickle-cell anaemia was more of a problem in the Afro-caribbean population than the African.

Rob B
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #20249 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
mysdeerie wrote:

Lynn Robb of Tannochbrae is an example of dedication to furthering the best interests of the breed; here is a small portion of her spreadsheet available on her website which would be of great benefit to the community as a whole if open and honest records were kept to aid the breed as a whole. www.tannochbrae.org/


I've often said that we need a database of the DH population to help locate genetic/health problems in the breed. In the view of somebody I know who is experienced in the UK breede it would be a non starter as breeders would not welcome it's introduction. Also to avoid criticism about its accuracy we would need post-mortems to be carried out on deceased dogs before the details could be verified as being accurate on the database. The expense of this also discourages the creation of a database. It's a shame that this is so but at present it doesn't look like being a possibility.

As a computer software developer I have developed software to analyse the degree of nmbreeding in a population but am in need of detailed data before I can take this further.

Rob B
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Robb.
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9 years 8 months ago #20264 by Bodhranlady
Bodhranlady replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
:)Interesting though it is to discuss human genetic diversity (and I could go on for hours - sad isn't it?), better stick to DH's methinks. However, one interesting thing is that sickle-cell anaemia has a protective effect against malaria!

Back to the hounds. A database would be wonderful Robb, but I too suspect it would be less than welcome. In my experience (not with breeding deerhounds), whenever something untoward 'pops up' in an animal one hears "well, that's never been in my line", "it must be the sire/dams fault(whichever isn't owned by the speaker). Lots of other comments too - it's just amazing how perfect some people's animals are!!!

Unfortunately, some people regard obtaining information to be used for the good of a breed as a 'witch hunt'. Human nature I guess.

Pretty cool how this thread has diversified into all sorts of areas isn't it?

Off out to sing now. TTFN
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9 years 8 months ago #20270 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Purebred is a nineteenth century invention.

See for more information on the origin and evolution of our canines two very interesting articles in Science:
- East Asian Origin of Domestic Dogs, by Peter Savolainen et al, Science 298, 1610 (2002), and
- Genetic Structure of the Purebred Domestic Dog, by Heidi G. Parker et al., Science 304, 1160 (2004).

Someone in this thread used the word eugenetics. and that's precisely the problem.
As far as I'm concerned kennel clubs all over the world as well as the FCI would do well to rethink their dogma of breed barrier rule. Anastasia Noble was understood this better than anyone else.
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9 years 8 months ago #20274 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Bonnie wrote:

Purebred is a nineteenth century invention.

See for more information on the origin and evolution of our canines two very interesting articles in Science:
- East Asian Origin of Domestic Dogs, by Peter Savolainen et al, Science 298, 1610 (2002), and
- Genetic Structure of the Purebred Domestic Dog, by Heidi G. Parker et al., Science 304, 1160 (2004).

Someone in this thread used the word eugenetics. and that's precisely the problem.
As far as I'm concerned kennel clubs all over the world as well as the FCI would do well to rethink their dogma of breed barrier rule. Anastasia Noble was understood this better than anyone else.


Totally agree Bonnie, It's the Kennel clubs that create these problems. At the end of the day you can't buck nature, you have to live along side it.

Rob B
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #20277 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:

Ardneish wrote:

Thankyou for that good of you.

Again the colours/coat texture etc can be attributed to lack of purity in the lines in my view this was the very early days of dog shows


Forgive me for saying but surely all breeds are made from "impure" lines?
That is surely how breeds came about? In the beginning dogs were bred for "working ability" there were no breeds before the Kennel Club chose to recognize some breeds but not others.
Surely before breed recognition there was just "type" but after KC intervention there were "breeds".
Much has been said in this thread about "limited gene pool" and surely the Kennel Club is to blame for this ridiculous state of affairs?
:dry:

Bonnie wrote:
" Someone in this thread used the word eugenics;and that's precisely the problem.
As far as I'm concerned kennel clubs all over the world as well as the FCI would do well to rethink their dogma of breed barrier rule."
Ring any bells yet?
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by hairybeasty.
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9 years 8 months ago #20287 by crackadog
crackadog replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
It's been an interesting thread alright - I feel there's a good deal of research and scientific knowledge out there. Pity there is not an international conference opportunity somewhere -possibly like Crufts- where all the knowledgeable and those whose major interest is the furtherance of the breed, could come together in live discussions for the benefit of the breed. E.g. How to eliminate aspects of ill health; discussion the future of the DH if height continues to increase; how does one breed to retain the best qualities of working and showing hounds(having agreed on the qualities!) and other interesting areas thrown up by this thread.
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9 years 8 months ago #20291 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
all breeds stem from 'impure' lines - question is: why do they become pure all of a sudden? answer: they don't!
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9 years 8 months ago #20293 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Exactly my point; "before KC intervention there was "type" after it were"breeds".
But there was no allowance for "working ability" "mental attitude" or"fitness for purpose".
So back to the original question "when a breeds reason for existance becomes obsolete does it's ability suffer"....
Bohdranlady said " pretty cool how this thread has diversified into all sorts of areas" I for one disagree... to me it's all the same topic..as crackadog said "how does one breed to retain
the best qualities of working and showing hounds" and before you say it I know that working deerhounds in the UK is not allowed in our "bunny hugger" society.
Much has been said about the past origins of our breed but apart from mysdeerie and others not much about the future of it....
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #20296 by verenav
verenav replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Not really having to do with this discussion , but really , really interesting , new perspectives , facts and ideas about dogs ( and also wolves and humans ) . www://www.nonlineardogs.com/

Also , I do think , that different colours come naturally to wolves , not necessarily re-introduced through dogs , then the wolves would also have to look different , wouldn't they ??
Here , in Canada/North America they seem to range from white over grey to red and almost black ; the red wolves being very rare and being found in the East . There are also new crosses appearing now , coyote wolve crosses ,mostnlikely having to do with the fact , that wolves are still being hunted heavily and , in some parts of the continent , almost extinct , whereas the coyote thrives once the wolve is removed . As far as I know those crosses are not fertile , so a loose/loose for both species .
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by verenav.
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9 years 8 months ago #20327 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
It has everything to do with this discussion! Anyone who knows Darwin should know that.
Hairybeasty's analysis is right. It's when people start talking about racial purity I get really angry.
As I've said before, purebred and pedigree breeding are nineteenth century inventions. The nineteenth century is the Romantic Age. The Romantic Age was a reaction to the Eighteenth Century, the Age of revolution. Is this relevant? Well yes, because the romantics laid the foundation stones for the nazis, the fascists, the communists, (religious) fundamentalists, and, interestingly, nature conservationalists and animal activists. I will expand on this at a later moment, I'm rather pressed for time right now, but for now it is important to understand that each of these groups deny reason and reject modernity.
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #20331 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Bonnie wrote:

It has everything to do with this discussion! Anyone who knows Darwin should know that.
Hairybeasty's analysis is right. It's when people start talking about racial purity I get really angry.
As I've said before, purebred and pedigree breeding are nineteenth century inventions. The nineteenth century is the Romantic Age. The Romantic Age was a reaction to the Eighteenth Century, the Age of revolution. Is this relevant? Well yes, because the romantics laid the foundation stones for the nazis, the fascists, the communists, (religious) fundamentalists, and, interestingly, nature conservationalists and animal activists. I will expand on this at a later moment, I'm rather pressed for time right now, but for now it is important to understand that each of these groups deny reason and reject modernity.


This thread has more than losts it way
How can I unsubscribe from e mail updates coming through to me?
As I am finding the last couple of pages the biggest load of drivel I have ever read and this post really offensive.

Its ok I have found out how to unsubscribe

Have a lovely Sunday everyone
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Ardneish.
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #20343 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I do agree that this thread has drifted so have started a new thread.

Rob B
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Robb.
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9 years 8 months ago #20348 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
As my final post I'd just like to say that I do think that its important to preserve "fit for purpose" in the breed, however I think that its even more important to preserve the Breed. I heard that the KC regard Deerhounds as a threatened breed and after doing some research estimate that there are probably in the order of 2000 registered dogs alive today in the UK. Out of these how many are used to breed from, say 300? Many of these will be quite closely related so we don't really have a masive Gene pool to allow a change of the breed standard to exclude larger dogs.

If we placed a height limit of say 28" then how many would we be left with to breed from?

I think that priority must be to preserve this wonderful breed.

Rob B
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9 years 8 months ago #20360 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Robb wrote:

If we placed a height limit of say 28" then how many would we be left with to breed from?


Damn few and they wouldn't be Deerhounds!

We have a minimum height standard now, for what seemed like good and sufficient reason to those who compiled it, and I think we should adhere to it. That's not to say that being below the minimum height as stated in the standard should be seen as a disqualifying fault - it should be taken into consideration like any other fault when judging the Deerhound as a whole.
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #20367 by CiCoch
CiCoch replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Sid wrote:

Robb wrote:

If we placed a height limit of say 28" then how many would we be left with to breed from?


Damn few and they wouldn't be Deerhounds!

We have a minimum height standard now, for what seemed like good and sufficient reason to those who compiled it, and I think we should adhere to it. That's not to say that being below the minimum height as stated in the standard should be seen as a disqualifying fault - it should be taken into consideration like any other fault when judging the Deerhound as a whole.


Sid, I don't want to sound like I'm being awkward here, but haven't you just contradicted yourself there ?

On one hand your saying a sub 28" Deerhound isn't a Deerhound, yet you then say it shouldn't be seen as a disqualifying fault.

My problem with the whole KC standard thing is that we are being forced down the same blind alley, forever trying to achieve the impossibly perfect Deerhound. Along with all the goodstuff that a Champion dog may bring to the mix , there's the potential to bring the bad stuff too.

If we worried less about height and more about disease, I think the Breed would be in a far better place.
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by CiCoch.
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9 years 8 months ago #20368 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I hope not, Steve. I certainly didn't intend to. What I meant was that we wouldn't have anything like a wide enough gene pool if we restricted breeding to hounds under 28". If you want to get size down (or up) then I believe it's best to mate your under (or over) size dog to a dog of medium size and work from there. There's no point in trying to breed the perfect dog in one generation - these things take time. And I couldn't agree more that we should be paying attention to breeding healthy Deerhounds first and foremost.
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