Working ability in Deerhounds

  • Ardneish
  • Ardneish's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 8 months ago #19713 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
A scottish hill with Scottish landscape up glenkinglas, or barcaldine forest is a whole different story to running on mild hills with good ground

Yes with my hounds it was an accident but they dispatched a full grown fallow pretty dam quick in thick woodland up a slight hill, what more do you require as proof? as I do not willingly break the law it was an accident.

You can't fill a full cup, and as a hollow vessel makes the most noise this will be my last post on the matter.

I have put forward my points and if you all want to concentrate on breeding 28 inch high deerhounds with wheaten coats then go ahead. As I have said i am not height prejudice at all! unlike some, if the hound with the best construction is 28 inch tall andbetter than the hound that is 32 inches tall as a judge the 28 inch tall hound would get it under me. and viza ve, or if both had the same construction equally then yes the more substantial hound would get it under me, ( I am speaking dog hounds)

All of the great breeders in the last 100 years did not think that was high up on the priority list

And as i have said before 90 percent of the Ardkinglas, Rotherwood, enterkine, Melchoir, dufault and your own lovely bitch Rafia Florent had a height restriction been in place none of these would of be shown/ bred from etc etc

madness totally i think

Good luck on your quests I for one am sticking to what I have been taught, seen, witnessed over a 30 plus year span
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19716 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I used to take my dog to Cannock Chase where Red deer are abundant. On one occasion he chased a fully grown male Deer who was 100 yards away up a steep hill. I was utterly amazed at how quickly he closed on the Deer, jumping through the heather, he would have been on it had it not disappeared into the thickets where thankfully he was hesitant to follow.

I was so worried after that incident, about breaking the law that I never again took him over the chase. At that time he was approaching 100 lbs and was 32" high at the shoulders.

That incident taught me that a Deerhound does not need stamina for a long chase but will just take advantage of a situation and be capable of an extremely fast sprint across difficult terrain. Measuring a dog's speed when it is just running will never give a true indication of what a dog is capable of in an actual hunting incident.

Rob B
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Robb.
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19729 by florent
florent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Ardneish wrote:

A scottish hill with Scottish landscape up glenkinglas, or barcaldine forest is a whole different story to running on mild hills with good ground

Yes with my hounds it was an accident but they dispatched a full grown fallow pretty dam quick in thick woodland up a slight hill, what more do you require as proof? as I do not willingly break the law it was an accident.

You can't fill a full cup, and as a hollow vessel makes the most noise this will be my last post on the matter.

I have put forward my points and if you all want to concentrate on breeding 28 inch high deerhounds with wheaten coats then go ahead. As I have said i am not height prejudice at all! unlike some, if the hound with the best construction is 28 inch tall andbetter than the hound that is 32 inches tall as a judge the 28 inch tall hound would get it under me. and viza ve, or if both had the same construction equally then yes the more substantial hound would get it under me, ( I am speaking dog hounds)

All of the great breeders in the last 100 years did not think that was high up on the priority list

And as i have said before 90 percent of the Ardkinglas, Rotherwood, enterkine, Melchoir, dufault and your own lovely bitch Rafia Florent had a height restriction been in place none of these would of be shown/ bred from etc etc

madness totally i think

Good luck on your quests I for one am sticking to what I have been taught, seen, witnessed over a 30 plus year span


Hello Betina,
You said "Go ahead", you could also say "go back to the origins...".
I don't want to contest modern deerhound ability for show and breeding, i just join people who think perhaps ancestors (and present breeders) have taken a wrong way about size, weight, lenght of coat, over curve loin, loosing colours, etc... This is not an insult to them and i think it is a bigger respect to considere ancestors as human with their potential errors than giving to ancestors the place of gods. I don't forget how wonderful are our deerhounds, sweet behaviour, subtle combination of nobility and rustic authenticity, this particular beauty that some people need a lot of time to disover it, rare are persons who immediatly fall in love and so many will never see the magic grace of the deerhound. We will never praise enough past breeders for this legacy.
Us, ... a lot of breeders and people just try to continue the work, not blindly, but with many different visions. The present conservatives have finally the same idea of the past revolutionaries and vice versa, it is funny, isn'it.
President Mr Kenneth Cassels, in spring 2009 Newsletter, answer to the question; "Are our hounds too big ?"
He finish with the finger on a common fault.
-"At least part of the height problem comes from the upright upper arm. If hounds are not lifted in front but allowed to stand with their forelegs under them instead of being lifted onto their toes, they would lose a little height and the shoulder assembly would be better."



Pitlochry's Olympus Oliver 78 cm, 48 kg (30 2/3 inch 106 lbs).
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by florent.
The topic has been locked.
  • Richard
  • Richard's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Under Graduate Boarder
  • Under Graduate Boarder
More
9 years 8 months ago #19730 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Just to go back to the opening of this discussion - Does it matter that Deerhounds have not been judged on their ability to catch and bring down red deer for almost a century and a half? Does it matter that they have not been truly judged for their temperament, or instinct to chase, because the show ring – the major mediator in generating Deerhounds – does not truly require them to be judged on those aspects, and is in fact not even able to judge them on those aspects?
Since the Deerhound is no longer required to do its original work, and since the Deerhound has changed significantly in size, see the discussion prior to this on breed standard history & changes, the answer is clearly no. It is not really important except to a very few "purists". Time has proven that.
It is extremely improbable that the significant changes that have taken place in Deerhound appearance over time, in particular the increase in size will ever be reversed, even if they did add to the general health and longevity of the breed. Essentially today we have an animal that has outgrown its function and imperilled its old age by being too large. Capping the ever increasing size in the Deerhound has not been suggested and it would not result in new or more diseases. On the contrary, if instituted, it might increase longevity.
So the early questions in this discussion: “How do we stop this from happening - and do we care?” are too late, and too little. Succesive standards for Deerhounds we know have in fact, falsified the working stature of the breed.
We have forgotten what the original coursing Deerhound looked like, despite the fact that it is a matter of recorded history. The majority of people concerned in building up the identity and later the descriptions and breed standard of the Modern (1892-1940s) and Post Modern (1940s-present) Deerhound, were neither residents of Scotland nor deer-coursing experts. Before Deerhounds began to be shown in the late 1800's Scrope and Graham et al propagated the idea that the Deerhound of their time was "degenerate". See Scrope’s attempts at re-breeding a new Deerhound (Title vignette to his Deer-stalking www.archive.org/stream/ar...ge/n28/mode/1up ) and visualise Graham’s attempt to create a giant to be named Irish Wolfhound, based on the Deerhound - which would average about 33” - the size of many male Deerhounds today. Neither Scrope nor Graham coursed deer. Scrope stalked and shot them. The creators of the first Deerhound breed standard: Hickman and Hood Wright had no recorded history of deer-coursing or even deer-stalking. By all appearances they struggled over setting a height prescription, and “larger” won – however with a very important caveat: “Height of Dogs – from 28-30 inches or more if there be symmetry without coarseness, but which is rare.” My emphasis.
A 28” male would be sent out of the ring these days. Witness Hood Wright as reported by E.G Salter of the Deerhound Club in Dogs by Well–Known Authorities Harding Cox, London:1908, “Those that can breed them big do so; those that can only breed little ones do not like the big ones.” Quite amusing, but totally misleading.
We are no longer able to hunt our Deerhounds on their original quarry in their original surroundings - something that defined their identity and preserved their authenticity. We have had something of a golden, almost 50 year, period between 1950 and 2000 when their athletic prowess and desire to chase could be tested on their home terrain on the hare (the Dava Quaich). But by then they had long outgrown their original function. The last recorded consistent attempts made in Scotland to course cold (unwounded) stags was done by De Angelo of Cullachy, and there they made the same mistake breeding generations of dogs too big for function. That was the last attempt and is the only way to preserve the original Deerhound. Certainly chasing fallow deer in wooded England is no indication of functionality. Fallow deer are roughly half the stature of red deer.

None of this really matters to most people with Deerhounds. However, I contend that we do need to understand our breed history. To ignore it or pretend we have functional Deerhounds because they kill a hare or fallow deer is only paying lip-service to the prescribed requirement of function in our breed. If we forget our breed history, or falsify it, we do so to the peril of the breed as a whole.
~Richard (who loves watching his Deerhounds chase just about anything :)
The topic has been locked.
  • hairybeasty
  • hairybeasty's Avatar Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 8 months ago #19731 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Now that is as contentious as saying the only way to preserve this breed is to overturn The Hunting Act...
The topic has been locked.
  • Murph the Magnificent
  • Murph the Magnificent's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Graduate Boarder
  • Graduate Boarder
More
9 years 8 months ago #19732 by Murph the Magnificent
Murph the Magnificent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Thank you that very considered and erudite reply, Richard.

This has just brought home to ne that we are very lucky to have some internationally respected breeders, showers and judges of deerhounds who have contributed to this debate, who have many hundreds of years experience between them.

I for one am learning loads from this topic.

I won't pretend to be the philosopher that certain of my esteemed friends know themselves to be (you know who you are - "Schroedinger's Lottery Ticket" indeed!), but my undergraduate degree is in sociology and it's been really interesting to observe some folks considering the past as some sort of "golden era".

I don't want to sound pompous but this is a very common occurence - the middle aged of every generation consider their youth, or certainly what has gone before, to be some sort of mythical golden age, in all sorts of different ways (crime being a favourite - "when I were a lad we used to be able to leave our doors unlocked...etc"). It's therefore only natural.

Someone (I think it was Richard) described the "illusion of permanence" in all things, which really caught my imagination.

We have also been also enjoyed the debates over nature vs. nurture in matters such as prey instict. It'd be good to hear from those with a passing interest in genetics to contribute a wee bit more on this.

Personally speaking I wouldn't want my deerhounds having the same level of prey instict as my ex-racing greyhound. They are MUCH easier to live with as a result.

To sum up, I don't think we're in any danger of getting any sort of consensus, but thanks to everyone for their contribution and for us not falling out - yet! Rob (Teratyke) must have been holding his breath a few times!
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 8 months ago #19733 by chook
chook replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Ardneish wrote:

A scottish hill with Scottish landscape up glenkinglas, or barcaldine forest is a whole different story to running on mild hills with good ground

Yes with my hounds it was an accident but they dispatched a full grown fallow pretty dam quick in thick woodland up a slight hill, what more do you require as proof? as I do not willingly break the law it was an accident.

You can't fill a full cup, and as a hollow vessel makes the most noise this will be my last post on the matter.

I have put forward my points and if you all want to concentrate on breeding 28 inch high deerhounds with wheaten coats then go ahead. As I have said i am not height prejudice at all! unlike some, if the hound with the best construction is 28 inch tall andbetter than the hound that is 32 inches tall as a judge the 28 inch tall hound would get it under me. and viza ve, or if both had the same construction equally then yes the more substantial hound would get it under me, ( I am speaking dog hounds)

All of the great breeders in the last 100 years did not think that was high up on the priority list

And as i have said before 90 percent of the Ardkinglas, Rotherwood, enterkine, Melchoir, dufault and your own lovely bitch Rafia Florent had a height restriction been in place none of these would of be shown/ bred from etc etc

madness totally i think

Good luck on your quests I for one am sticking to what I have been taught, seen, witnessed over a 30 plus year span


I dont realy think this thread is about going back in time and trying to recreate the old type, unfortunaly no matter how much someone wanted to do that - its in the past, and should be left there, the past is the past as they say.
But like Richard said, people should know about the origans of the breed, it dont matter if they cant do as they was intended - to chase and pull down deer, i for one am fasenated (sp) with the past of the breed, so much so - ive been through all of laylas breed thing (sorry am tired and coming down with a cold) and have checked out her ancestors tried to find pictures of them etc, as i want to know how she was breed, and her origans,
i also love reading and finding out how the breed got to were it is today.

Jane
The topic has been locked.
  • Ardneish
  • Ardneish's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19736 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Richard wrote:

Just to go back to the opening of this discussion - Does it matter that Deerhounds have not been judged on their ability to catch and bring down red deer for almost a century and a half? Does it matter that they have not been truly judged for their temperament, or instinct to chase, because the show ring – the major mediator in generating Deerhounds – does not truly require them to be judged on those aspects, and is in fact not even able to judge them on those aspects?
Since the Deerhound is no longer required to do its original work, and since the Deerhound has changed significantly in size, see the discussion prior to this on breed standard history & changes, the answer is clearly no. It is not really important except to a very few "purists". Time has proven that.
It is extremely improbable that the significant changes that have taken place in Deerhound appearance over time, in particular the increase in size will ever be reversed, even if they did add to the general health and longevity of the breed. Essentially today we have an animal that has outgrown its function and imperilled its old age by being too large.



Capping the ever increasing size in the Deerhound has not been suggested and it would not result in new or more diseases. On the contrary, if instituted, it might increase longevity.
So the early questions in this discussion: “How do we stop this from happening - and do we care?” are too late, and too little. Successive standards for Deerhounds we know have in fact, falsified the working stature of the breed.
We have forgotten what the original coursing Deerhound looked like, despite the fact that it is a matter of recorded history
in building up the identity and later the descriptions and breed standard of the Modern (1892-1940s) and Post Modern (1940s-present) Deerhound, were neither residents of Scotland nor. The majority of people concerned deer-coursing experts. Before Deerhounds began to be shown in the late 1800's Scrope and Graham et al propagated the idea that the Deerhound of their time was "degenerate". See Scrope’s attempts at re-breeding a new Deerhound (Title vignette to his Deer-stalking www.archive.org/stream/ar...ge/n28/mode/1up ) and visualise Graham’s attempt to create a giant to be named Irish Wolfhound, based on the Deerhound - which would average about 33” - the size of many male Deerhounds today. Neither Scrope nor Graham coursed deer. Scrope stalked and shot them. The creators of the first Deerhound breed standard: Hickman and Hood Wright had no recorded history of deer-coursing or even deer-stalking. By all appearances they struggled over setting a height prescription, and “larger” won – however with a very important caveat: “Height of Dogs – from 28-30 inches or more if there be symmetry without coarseness, but which is rare.” My emphasis.
A 28” male would be sent out of the ring these days. Witness Hood Wright as reported by E.G Salter of the Deerhound Club in Dogs by Well–Known Authorities Harding Cox, London:1908, “Those that can breed them big do so; those that can only breed little ones do not like the big ones.” Quite amusing, but totally misleading.
We are no longer able to hunt our Deerhounds on their original quarry in their original surroundings - something that defined their identity and preserved their authenticity. We have had something of a golden, almost 50 year, period between 1950 and 2000 when their athletic prowess and desire to chase could be tested on their home terrain on the hare (the Dava Quaich). But by then they had long outgrown their original function. The last recorded consistent attempts made in Scotland to course cold (unwounded) stags was done by De Angelo of Cullachy, and there they made the same mistake breeding generations of dogs too big for function. That was the last attempt and is the only way to preserve the original Deerhound. Certainly chasing fallow deer in wooded England is no indication of functionality. Fallow deer are roughly half the stature of red deer.

None of this really matters to most people with Deerhounds. However, I contend that we do need to understand our breed history. To ignore it or pretend we have functional Deerhounds because they kill a hare or fallow deer is only paying lip-service to the prescribed requirement of function in our breed. If we forget our breed history, or falsify it, we do so to the peril of the breed as a whole.
~Richard (who loves watching his Deerhounds chase just about anything :)



And we seem to also want to ignore the fact that alot of the so called pure deerhounds of that era were in fact cross breeds, it is also documented well that crossing out was popular to bring in other attritbutes and is done today in England still with the Minkhounds.and I for one can see greyhound quite clearly in one of the hounds in the photo of the last working pack along with others. and Capt Graham was still working to reserect the IW

Also I still believe that todays nutrition and veterinary science contributes to longer life, substance etc etc in that day Rickettes was rife, hounds had no proper worming no inoculation etc etc.

As to thinking that a smaller hound of say 28 inches will live a longer life by knocking out so many in the gene pool makes no sense to me at all
Quote

in building up the identity and later the descriptions and breed standard of the Modern (1892-1940s) and Post Modern (1940s-present) Deerhound, were neither residents of Scotland nor. The majority of people concerned deer-coursing experts. Before Deerhounds began to be shown in the late 1800's Scrope and Graham et al propagated

How I wish I could pick up the phone to Miss Noble and tell her this, as her hounds took Red Deer on a regular basis Azalia being the last one I remember her talking about who took one cleanly just outside the kennels on her own, and I would estimate her height at being around 30 /31.As you know she lived in Scotland and was major influence on any club decision along with Portsonachan, loughreys etc etc all determined strong characters Miss Hartley included who brought this breed through the 1418 and second world war.

Perhaps this short clip of film may help taken in 1923 do these hounds look 28 inches tall? to me no, but they do look purebred and very much like what is still around today in some parts of the UK to me yes www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=16726

As for Dava, most of the meets were won by the Saluki Club why? simple we were coursing hare and the Saluki is far better built with a quicker turn of foot for a hare than a Scottish Deerhound bred to stalk and put the Red Deer to bay, ( Dear Sid is the expert when it comes to Dava) when I went coursing the smaller finer built hounds would often win the course they won it becauses the wanted to, they had it between their ears to do the job , at that time there was a real difference in size because certain people wanted a " Hare coursing" deerhound and others wanted a bit of fun, but to still retain what is required for a Red Deer. but what Scottish Deerhound really won the course?? none because we were Hare coursing.
and often a 31 inch bitch hound would win a 32 dog stake , be put in the ring the next day and take the ticket and best of breed I need not say who the breeder was.

www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=16726


I have not seen you around the ring here Richard or in Scotland were there are some hidden gems that are un shown, when were you last over to take a look at the hounds we have here?
I have listened and give thought to all of your comments, the end of Deerhound work happened when the purdey was designed and that was a long time ago. my concern is the gene pool and were we are going with it now with present day pressure from the Bateson Inquiry.and this governement and ,to say a Deerhound of over 28 inches in height cannot do the job well ok I will tell mine that, and people I know who live in the North of Scotland that seem to regualary have accidents with their 32 inch hounds I will also let them know.sorry to sound crass but you see it makes no sense to me when I know they can if they want to and its the wanting to that can only be judged on the hill.

Thankyou for all of your input I enjoy reading it and a good debate is always interesting.
it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Ardneish.
The topic has been locked.
  • Ardneish
  • Ardneish's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19742 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
florent wrote:

Ardneish wrote:

A scottish hill with Scottish landscape up glenkinglas, or barcaldine forest is a whole different story to running on mild hills with good ground

Yes with my hounds it was an accident but they dispatched a full grown fallow pretty dam quick in thick woodland up a slight hill, what more do you require as proof? as I do not willingly break the law it was an accident.

You can't fill a full cup, and as a hollow vessel makes the most noise this will be my last post on the matter.

I have put forward my points and if you all want to concentrate on breeding 28 inch high deerhounds with wheaten coats then go ahead. As I have said i am not height prejudice at all! unlike some, if the hound with the best construction is 28 inch tall andbetter than the hound that is 32 inches tall as a judge the 28 inch tall hound would get it under me. and viza ve, or if both had the same construction equally then yes the more substantial hound would get it under me, ( I am speaking dog hounds)

All of the great breeders in the last 100 years did not think that was high up on the priority list

And as i have said before 90 percent of the Ardkinglas, Rotherwood, enterkine, Melchoir, dufault and your own lovely bitch Rafia Florent had a height restriction been in place none of these would of be shown/ bred from etc etc

madness totally i think

Good luck on your quests I for one am sticking to what I have been taught, seen, witnessed over a 30 plus year span


Hello Betina,
You said "Go ahead", you could also say "go back to the origins...".
I don't want to contest modern deerhound ability for show and breeding, i just join people who think perhaps ancestors (and present breeders) have taken a wrong way about size, weight, lenght of coat, over curve loin, loosing colours, etc... This is not an insult to them and i think it is a bigger respect to considere ancestors as human with their potential errors than giving to ancestors the place of gods. I don't forget how wonderful are our deerhounds, sweet behaviour, subtle combination of nobility and rustic authenticity, this particular beauty that some people need a lot of time to disover it, rare are persons who immediatly fall in love and so many will never see the magic grace of the deerhound. We will never praise enough past breeders for this legacy.
Us, ... a lot of breeders and people just try to continue the work, not blindly, but with many different visions. The present conservatives have finally the same idea of the past revolutionaries and vice versa, it is funny, isn'it.
President Mr Kenneth Cassels, in spring 2009 Newsletter, answer to the question; "Are our hounds too big ?"
He finish with the finger on a common fault.
-"At least part of the height problem comes from the upright upper arm. If hounds are not lifted in front but allowed to stand with their forelegs under them instead of being lifted onto their toes, they would lose a little height and the shoulder assembly would be better."



Pitlochry's Olympus Oliver 78 cm, 48 kg (30 2/3 inch 106 lbs).


Yes a hound I have so admired and would have used in a flash on one of my girls that was lacking some rear angulation.

I only have one god Florent and thats the one I have to answer to
Hope all well over there with you all and look forward to seeing you at Crufts if your coming over. I am booking to come to Erfurt this year so if not I hope to see you there.
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Ardneish.
The topic has been locked.
  • mysdeerie
  • mysdeerie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Graduate Boarder
  • Graduate Boarder
  • Barb
More
9 years 8 months ago #19745 by mysdeerie
mysdeerie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Working ability is probably obsolete. Is there any way to salvage hunting ability in dogs that can’t ever really hunt again?? Lure coursing is a poor substitute, but its all we’ve got.
If I were to travel with my deerhound somewhere where hunting live game was possible and legal would I do it? Yes I would, maybe… I think so. I don’t believe in hunting, couldn’t kill a rabbit, let alone eat one, so I guess probably not. :unsure:
Being out with the Fernhill hounds on occasion to see the whole lot go haring over hill and dale on the scent of something is thrill enough, they never bring anything home. Once I was out in the fields with the dogs when Lyric jumped straight up in the air and caught a turkey vulture in flight. Killed it instantly, dropped it and then didn’t know what to do with it. Neither did any of the other dogs, It wasn’t moving so the game was over.
I too agree that it will probably take many generations to lose the prey drive so inherent in these hounds of ours; and even then will probably simply lay fallow waiting for the right circumstance to come to the fore again.
What I hope we will never lose sight of is what it is that we (fallible humans) have done right with the breed and I know that most of the breeders amongst us have worked sometimes their whole lives breeding out character flaws and choosing preferentially for the best welfare of the breed.
Somehow what we have to do is learn from the past while minimizing at all costs the mistakes. Given the perilous state of the Scottish Deerhound a century and more ago, we should be grateful that we have the amount of raw materials, wealth of history, records, will and nerve to work with that we do. (Narrow gene pool and all)
This forum, the UK, U.S. and other deerhound clubs must be the resource of the future where lively discussions like this will decide the future fate of our beloved deerhounds.
Functionality and size while very important considerations (in my humble opinion) have to be part of a carefully thought out and managed breeding program. Using the “Standard” when choosing a sire and dam is only the first of many criterion which should include “type”, pedigree, health and temperament.
We must recognize that we have created the deerhound as it is today by in breeding, cross breeding and husbandry; we have left an indelible imprint on the deerhound and must decide how we will take this dog into the future. We need to review the breed standard and work collectively to help ensure the widest distribution and resources are available for maximum genetic diversity within the population of Scottish Deerhounds worldwide.
“The steady transition from wolf to dog has brought with it a reduction in the brain: body weight ratio- brain sizes in adult dogs are considerably smaller than in adult wolves of equivalent body weight (Coppinger & Schneider 1995) In equating this reduction in size with the arrest of brain development, Comminger and Coppinger (1998) noted that reduced brain size is consistent with the retardation of foraging and hazard-avoidance behaviours, as seen in modern domestic dogs. Furthermore, modern dogs demonstrate a number of neonatal behaviours such as soliciting care, begging for food, and sitting around at a rendevous point ‘waiting for parents’ (Coppinger and Schneider 1995)….” From: Some Practical Solutions to Welfare Problems in Dog Breeding P.D. McGreevy and F.W. Nicholas Dept. of Animal Science, U of Sydney, NSW 2006
The point being would our over domesticated wonderful companions be fit mentally and physically for the challenge of red deer were the opportunity presented?
Perhaps more breeder education programs under the auspices of organizations e.g. SDCA might be a way to build consensus and stability in the breed. It doesn’t take too much ill-considered breeding to result in problems that can be catastrophic on many levels for all of us.
Leadership, Education, co-operation and consensus building with other deerhound fanciers are what I expect from others and hope to contribute to in my lifetime.
The topic has been locked.
  • Chon Dubh
  • Chon Dubh's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Under Graduate Boarder
  • Under Graduate Boarder
More
9 years 8 months ago #19750 by Chon Dubh
Chon Dubh replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I have to say i have really enjoyed reading/contributing to this thread-it has been an excellent debate with some excellent contributions from many.We should not forget the rich history of the breed,but we also have to accept the function of the breed has changed as things will always change.What we want as owners is generally different to what our ancestors wanted.I am a relative newcomer to the breed,but i am much happier in Deerhounds than i was in others breeds i have been involved in.We have some health issues that need addressing still,but we have some excellent experienced breeders and a set of owners that care deeply about the history and the future of the breed.
The topic has been locked.
  • Murph the Magnificent
  • Murph the Magnificent's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Graduate Boarder
  • Graduate Boarder
More
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19751 by Murph the Magnificent
Murph the Magnificent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds

I have to say i have really enjoyed reading/contributing to this thread-it has been an excellent debate with some excellent contributions from many.We should not forget the rich history of the breed,but we also have to accept the function of the breed has changed as things will always change.What we want as owners is generally different to what our ancestors wanted.I am a relative newcomer to the breed,but i am much happier in Deerhounds than i was in others breeds i have been involved in.We have some health issues that need addressing still,but we have some excellent experienced breeders and a set of owners that care deeply about the history and the future of the breed.


Hear, hear, Chon Dubh - really well said.

Leadership, Education, co-operation and consensus building with other deerhound fanciers are what I expect from others and hope to contribute to in my lifetime.


I couldn't say it better myself mysdeerie, as a newcomer to the breed I think perhaps too often we take for granted the wisdom of people like Betina and others who have so much to offer the next generation of owners and breeders, and who can also share with us with stories of Miss Noble and her hounds. People like Ms Noble and who came immediately after have done so much for the development and continuation of the modern/post-modern deerhound. If I carry on a small fraction of their work over my lifetime then I feel I'll have achieved something.
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Murph the Magnificent.
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 8 months ago #19754 by florent
florent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Ardneish wrote:

......
Yes a hound I have so admired and would have used in a flash on one of my girls that was lacking some rear angulation.

I only have one god Florent and thats the one I have to answer to
Hope all well over there with you all and look forward to seeing you at Crufts if your coming over. I am booking to come to Erfurt this year so if not I hope to see you there.



You and me it's ok for life ;) , i'll enjoy to meet you at Crufts (i will come with a toobigdog... :unsure: ) and it's a good news to see you again at German Breedshow.
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19759 by CiCoch
CiCoch replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I find it very heartening to see such interest and passion about our beloved breed, and according to the survey so far, over 50% of owners consider their dogs be a hunter in some shape or form.

I would be interested to know from the breeders among us , if they had a good show dog that was also a good hunter, would you purposefully look to match to bitch of the same ilk.
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by CiCoch.
The topic has been locked.
  • Ardneish
  • Ardneish's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 8 months ago #19760 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Mysdeerie

Very well said and Thankyou
I enjoyed reading and thinking about your post


Chon dubh

Yes it’s so very sad to see the over exaggeration in so many other wonderful breeds, (my heart does go out to the devoted bulldog breeder but I am sure they will go forward as a breed they seem to have good strong leadership there.)

Politically we are in a state of flux with purebred dogs, I am sure there is legislation to come if this government are voted back in so I really think we need to work far harder on health issues before its forced upon us ( vets are now reporting all stats and for sure heart bone cancer etc is going to show up on under Deerhound).


Welcome to Deerhound chon they need people like you to take it forward ;)

I attended an excellent IW judging day and learnt such a lot, I do believe there is a seminar being planned for later in the year over in the east so I hope I may meet some of you there or at Crufts I think mydeerie is so right we need much more education available.
and I am sure ambitious judges would really benefit from a day like this if we had it available ( I passed my exam but it was really tough! :)

Florent does that mean darling Barnaby is coming to Crufts ?? I so hope so and I am looking forward to Erfurt I would of taken some of mine to show there but it’s an English judge so no point going to that expense. :huh: :)

I know all the faults on my own hounds and when planning a litter (not for a long time yet I hope), I do bear in mind height, and when showing if that judge does not like my hounds that’s fine too it’s only a dog show. I currently have 3 male hounds ( agggh and double ughhhh) I never keep dogs ( neishy must of lost the plot totally)
They vary in type, height and substance and I know all of their faults and not everyone will like them thats fine too, but we do need a variety of Dog hounds to help with the gene pool and to offer bitches and their owners a choice. I have now totally rambled and gone of topic


But just to say I think your all great! :kiss: :P :) And we all share a mutual love of the most wonderful breed we just need to keep it that way.

Off to split up to really naughty puppies







:)
The topic has been locked.
  • Ardneish
  • Ardneish's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19761 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
CiCoch wrote:

I find it very heartening to see such interest and passion about our beloved breed, and according to the survey so far, over 50% of owners consider their dogs be a hunter in some shape or form.

I would be interested to know from the breeders among us , if they had a good show dog that was also a good hunter, would you puposefully look to match to bitch of the same ilk.



Yes in a word

But health and longevity matter the most to me right now, I am lucky enough or unlucky ( feeling old today)
to have seen most of the hounds in a five generation pedigree and I do look through it to figure out roughly the ages most of them lived too. :) if there were any early sudden onset death etc etc.
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Ardneish.
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 8 months ago #19766 by chook
chook replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
For anyone thats intrested,
have found another old type book on the deerhound, theres about 5 pages,
some of its quite intresting.

chestofbooks.com/animals/...-Deerhound.html

Jane
The topic has been locked.
More
9 years 8 months ago #19792 by verenav
verenav replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Wow , lots has happened here since I last checked in - what a very , very interesting and educational thread . One thing , we all do agree on , or at least should , is , how breathtaking it is to see a deerhound on the hunt ! No matter what gloomy mood I might be in , my girls taking off to a hunt will bring me right out of it , exhilrate all senses and bring awe to my heart ( sorry , do not know wether this is a way to put it into English ) . As I hike usually not only in really steep but also very forested terrain , seing them explore the surroundings also brings back the words of a breeder who sais " the deerhounds have the wolve in them " - yep , a pack of grey giants on the prowl , gorgeous .
The topic has been locked.
  • Richard
  • Richard's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Under Graduate Boarder
  • Under Graduate Boarder
More
9 years 8 months ago #19797 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
I have not seen you around the ring here Richard or in Scotland were there are some hidden gems that are un shown, when were you last over to take a look at the hounds we have here?

In a discussion which should really be based on the recorded development of the Deerhound, my personal experience is irrelevant. But, since you asked, I first saw live Deerhounds in England in 1962. In 1967 I was at my first Crufts, explicitly to see Deerhounds. I was at Dava in 1992 with a Deerhound in hand for three days. The last time I saw the National Breed Show was in 1998 - I spent the meantime closely observing, owning, track racing, lure coursing, (illegally)live coursing, and showing Deerhounds in Europe. Long enough to know how they have changed even in that short time. Understanding also the occasional comments that Deerhounds were looking more and more like Irish Wolfhounds. The following ten years I have spent in North America, literally "living" Deerhounds.

We should try and be as accurate as possible. Yes, when Deerhounds were bred solely to hunt deer, they pre-dated formal pedigrees, and often were cross-bred, as any hunting breed was. However, from the time of the formal KC stud book and pedigree, the time of the official standard 1892 + 1902, and the 28-30" Deerhound dog, we can consider them to be mainly pure bred, with a few known exceptions.

No doubt Anastasia Noble would take exception to what I wrote about those breeding Deerhounds to hunt deer. However, she did not breed consistently for that purpose, as they did do at Cullachy. She bred for the ring, and to the prescription of the standard, even though - in her own words - it took her some time to get around to actually knowing it. And yes she coursed deer, as did others.

On Nora Hartley, despite her undisputed imprint on the breed, at no time did she "bring the breed through the 14-18 war". Her first Deerhound, Silver Cloud, was born in 1925.

On Dava, in principle Saluki's did not "win" from Deerhounds, as the breeds ran separately. Until the final invitational Blanco Cup - when the best Deerhound could run against the best Saluki. When I was there the score for the preceding twenty years was 10:10, (equal winners) as judged by the NCC judge - on work, not on picking up blue hares. Worthwhile remembering when you think of this being the Deerhounds' terrain, even if the Saluki may be faster and more agile.

Once more, when we discuss the "one true" Deerhound, its ability, and the "one true" breed standard, we should reflect on what they are or were, what was the reality, and ascertain the facts, accurately.
The topic has been locked.
  • Ardneish
  • Ardneish's Avatar
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19921 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Just need to clarify

At one time when I went coursing there was an extremely keen bitch that won a lot of the coursing meets over a couple of years she was slighter in build but she had grit, determination and a real instinct she wanted to do it, and could do it, and did do it, she had a lot between her ears. so she was as Handsome as handsome does. on hare.

Dava

I have been told on good authority, from a very well respected Deerhound exhibitor breeder and judge, that it worked out around 50/50 Saluki Deerhound wins over the Dava meets it could often depend on the height of the heather and this was on blue hare not Red deer for those not familiar with the meeting.

Also there own bitch won the Dava meeting who was a substantial strong bitch ( dam good one too) and was over 28 inches in height more like 30 to 31 from memory (but thats a guess).

So in a nutshell as long as they have it between their ears there is no reason or logic to me to say that only deerhounds of 28 inches can do the job they were bred to do. and the damage that would be done to the gene pool by placing a height restriction would be catastrophic.

I know that some Deerhounds above the height of 28 inches can do the job they were originally bred to do, because I have seen it ,heard about it.


Ok enough on the topic from me.
Last Edit: 9 years 8 months ago by Ardneish.
The topic has been locked.
Moderators: Joerg Yoki
Time to create page: 1.053 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum