Working ability in Deerhounds

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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19584 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
fiddle wrote:

Sid wrote:

No one would have dared shoot one of Miss Noble's hounds! The Nobles owned the estate that the hound went AWOL on, so that was never an issue. There are photographs of Val on the Club site - look at the champions - and probably in old Deerhound Club newsletters. She was a substantial lassie, right enough.


Val is one of my all-time favourite, but it was not her that disappeared for several weeks, it was her mother, another fantastic Ardkinglas Campion – Idol.
It happen while I staid at Ardkinglas. Simon Harrow (Waterfield Deerhounds, he bred four litters two with A. Wilma and two with A. Helen an Idol daughter) arrived the other day and went with Miss Noble and some dogs. Simon wanted to learn more about Deerhounds; he had already one Deerhound from Miss Noble Ardkinglas Wilma.
When they came back Idol had disappeared No sign, nothing. Weeks later she came back and was in good shape. But on 15.000 acres are many places to hide……
This is a photo I took of Val – brings back happy memories!


I always got the two muddled up, they were the most outstanding Scottish Deerhound girls I have ever seen.

Yes I remember Simon well and miss him and his lovely wife he is now one of the Top Breeders of Murray grey cattle in the UK,I sometimes see him at the agricultural shows, I bought Waterfield Badger from Simon years ago happy days
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9 years 8 months ago #19585 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Sid wrote:

Sid wrote:

Knew I had it! Here's the photograph of the last working pack. Waltraud's vet, whose great uncle is the chap in the photograph, lent it to her and she sent it to me years ago.

Here's the caption: Last Working Pack of Deerhounds in Scotland, taken in 1890, at Doune Cottage on Blackwater Estate, Glenfiddich, Banffshire, with their houndsman Mr J Anderson.[/quote] [b]Damn! Rob, is there any way of loading a pdf file? It's the only format I've got the photograph in, although I'm away to try clever things with Photoshop.[/b] Tries again: [img]http://www.scottish-deerhound.com/media/kunena/attachments/legacy/images/Last_Working_Deerhound_Pack.jpg[/img] Yay![/quote] Well done Sid!, excellant[file]
Here's the caption: Last Working Pack of Deerhounds in Scotland,
taken in 1890, at Doune Cottage on Blackwater Estate, Glenfiddich,
Banffshire, with their houndsman Mr J Anderson.


Damn! Rob, is there any way of loading a pdf file? It's the only format I've got the photograph in, although I'm away to try clever things with Photoshop.

Tries again:

Yay!



Well done Sid!, excellant
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19588 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Richard wrote:

<<find the info that he cites or even what the timescales of the changes he refers to are?>>

Senex in Dalziel's British Dogs etc. circa 1879
Weston Bell 1892
Ist official breed standard also 1892 height of dogs 28-30", or even more if there be symmetry without coarseness, but which is rare.
Somewhere around 1914 (the UK club has lost the minutes) the points system of judging was discarded, height jumps: from 30-32" or even more if there be symmetry without coarseness, but which is rare
Compare that to the modern UK standard.
Ever since that time from the 20's through the 50's to the 80's the growth in height has been discussed with varying degrees of warning. [b]There has been a collective amnesia in the club about the correct stature of the true efficient hunting Deerhound. Those that have raised serious, well based questions on the matter, for instance with the request to curtail the height description in the standard have not always been fairly or justly answered.


@Richard
I would be totally against any demands to adjust the present breed standard with regard to height if this was changed how many really good examples of Deerhounds who maybe excel in good construction, substance from long living healthy bloodlines free from heridatary heart bone cancer , etc etc would no longer be able to be shown? Playing with fire springs to my mind.

I can think of quite a few often dog hounds that can offer so much to slight small bitches and viza ve.
So you would sacrifice hounds that excel in construction, substance, angulation front and rear, spring of rib plenty of heart lung room etc because they were 32 inches tall?

I remember what happened to the quality and health in the poodle world when the toy miniature debate rolled on, and I also know of the most superb champion poodles that were bred from oversize miniature poodles put to tiny toys.

I for one think I have enough knowledge and experience to judge a hound that is placed in front of me and as I have said before if the less tall hound had the best construction I would place it above the taller hound with a poor contstruction I personally am not " talljudice" and do not want to have to judge Deerhounds with a measuring stick as poodles are.

It would be interesting to know what is your kennel name Richard as I am totally open on this board.


A word about the pack of Deerhounds - this dates from after the era of coursing with one or two two Deerhounds. It is very much from the time of the 'modern' rifle. True coursing is simply not done with a pack of hounds[/b].


@ Richard ( sorry I can't seem to colour highlight)
When I whipped in with the Shreenwater Bloodhounds a large pack of hounds were kept around 70 but usually only max 15 couple were taken out, some of the pack where in season, injured, out in puppy walkers homes, old favorites and teachers that did not work anymore but had deserved their retirement so I don't think just because there are a number of hounds in the photo that it means all were worked at the same time.

On "true type" and whether we still have it - any dog/breed can chase and even exhaust a red deer (Charles St John circa 1878 writes about a bulldog doing just that), exaggerated, untypical show Greyhounds can actually catch hares; it doesn't mean they are as efficient or as good at it as their original antecedants - far from it.
As Arrian wrote on the difference between scent hounds and sighthounds: the former can catch hares despite their build, the latter thanks their build.

For further reading see the links at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sco...Further_reading

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9 years 8 months ago #19590 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
hairybeasty wrote:

In Richard's recent post he makes some interesting points. Do'es anyone know where to find the info that he cites or even what the timescales of the changes he refers to are?



Hairy

I am so glad that Deerhound found you!, if you are coming to Crufts please PM me and I will bring some of the old books I have here and lend them to you

Betina
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9 years 8 months ago #19597 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Just for complete clarity, the photo of the so-called pack of Deerhounds is from David Brown.

(Sighthounds are in principle never hunted in packs)

The photo is not from Waltraud Hess, and has as far as I know no relation to her, other than her alerting others to its existence.

David Brown wrote to us,

<<I inherited the picture from my great uncle James Anderson who was the only son of the houndsman, also named James, featured in this photo>>

David mentioned that the Deerhounds were trained and hunted as a pack, hence the title of the photo,

<<Set free at the wounded stag they chased him down and secured him for the guest. The hounds were also used to drive deer , especially hinds in the early winter, to waiting rifles to aid the cull. Rarely on this estate were the hounds used to course deer, but I think it did happen.>>

We could at this time, if we wanted, easily breed a functional, original type, of Deerhound (as Darwin and others have explained long ago in another context of domestic animals and their plasticity).
But we don't want to.
We have convinced ourselves that the Post Modern Deerhound is authentic. The historical and functional Deerhound male of circa 28/29 inches will be disregarded, if not ridiculed, in the show-ring in our time.

Richard
www.fernhill.com/

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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19599 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Well my hounds work Richard and work very hard ,and keenly without injury to date
and my girls are 30 inch at shoulder and one at 31
My boys are 31, 32 and the other lad is growing and not yet worked they have substance power great width behind and plenty of muscle and desire! to do the job

And I know my hounds can/do/are, able and built to do the job they were meant to do.because they have done it.

We already have enough hereditary health problems in this breed that are being over looked to start messing around with a fragile gene pool, to throw away excellent exhibits both in construction and from long living healthy bloodlines both in the ring and out of the ring because a few people want to place a height restrictions on the breed, we do not want to go the route of the Toy min Poodle war of years ago lets work on health first no good having a 28 inch height hound that drops dead of Arterial fib at 10 months.


I know for sure what my mentors thought on this topic and there views will stay with me.
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9 years 8 months ago #19600 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Ardneish wrote:

And I know my hounds can/do/are, able and built to do the job they were meant to do.because they have done it
I know for sure what my mentors thought on this topic and there views will stay with me.



I for one would love to know what those thoughts might be....
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9 years 8 months ago #19607 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Thank you Richard. I knew Waltraud's vet supplied the photograph of the Blackwater pack, but had completely forgotten his name. We corresponded for a while as well, but that was two computers ago and the email has been lost. He did mention, though, that his great uncle was a very tall man, which may be why the hounds look on the small side.
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9 years 8 months ago #19625 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Interesting to see these dogs are so big. My own worker is 27" to the shoulder and runs all night.
Is it possible that the dogs in the photo were of a similar size and we only think they look small because of what we are used to seeing:eg not working beasts?
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9 years 8 months ago #19673 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Nat wrote:

With the power of some current lobby groups, we will be lucky if we are even allowed to breed pedigree dogs in 5 years time, let alone participate in blood sports with them.

Just a thought but if we did some sort of working/ lure coursing trials for our dogs maybe this would stand us in good stead with these lobby groups,as we could then prove beyond all reasonable doubt that our dogs were fit for purpose and did not suffer from any congenital breeding defects.
If breeders could prove through some sort of test that they were breeding fit and healthy
animals maybe Deerhounds might not be tarred with the same brush as some other breeds...
Interested to see what others think...
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9 years 8 months ago #19679 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
If you haven't already seen it, I suggest you read the very competent submission made to the Burns Inquiry by the Scottish Deerhound Coursing Club.
Richard

www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk...untingframe.htm

See Part 1, and Annex 1.
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19683 by Ardneish
Ardneish replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Yes the club worked very hard as did alot of other people, nearly one million of us marched through the streets of London but all to no avail

This report is now ten years old
This part of the report I so agree with
www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk...untingframe.htm

Where the club clearly state Scottish Deerhounds were not bred to hunt hare. and that is more than obvious to anyone who also was a member of a Greyhound coursing club such as the Cotswold as I was to see the difference in the course between the two breeds was huge!.

What we all have to be concerned about now is Professor Batesons Inquiry report just type that into google and see how the RSPCA, along with others are so looking forward to destroying alot of purebred dogs.
www.dogmagazine.net/archi...d-has-woken-up/

Vets will now report stats into the individual breeds and unless we start to introduce sensible health screening such as an organized heart testing such as the IW club, show some support and fund raising for bone cancer be open and full disclosure with regard to Liver shunt.

Then in my view in time this will be forced upon us and maybe it needs to be.

By knocking out 90% plus of todays UK gene pool by placing a height restriction is
( as factor 7 has been doing because sadly some people plan a litter thinking it more important to breed only from a factor 7 clear bitch and dog paying no attention to hereditary heart etc behind the lines) is that going to help with these killer diseases??

Also if a height restriction had been in place during the last 60 years most of the "Outstanding " Champions and influential brood bitches and stud dogs which give us the hounds we have today would of never been shown, never have been bred from so in effect the Scottish Deerhound of today would not exist maybe this is what is wanted by some, we also have to remember that the human population is now taller, live longer due to better food medicine etc and I personally think that this also applies to livestock along with companion animals.

The picture of the last hunting pack clearly shows that the majority of them are in fact lurchers crossed out to greyhounds along with perhaps collie so questionable at best as to if they are Deerhounds

As a responsible breeder I feel I have enough knowledge of hounds in the past in my pedigrees when planning a mating I have a good idea what the resultant puppies may look like and that includes their height and I for one want that freedom of choice.

If 28 inch hounds are mated to 28 inch hounds does anyone really think that the puppies will remain at 28 inches no I think they would become smaller and smaller with lots of health problems

I think I have said as much as I am going to, personally I am just going to keep my own small gene pool as healthy as possible, aim to keep the type I was taught and use my common sense and not expect a breed standard to be changed in order to suit my own hounds.

www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk...untingframe.htm
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9 years 8 months ago #19684 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Ardneish wrote:

we also have to remember that the human population is now taller, live longer due to better food medicine etc and I personally think that this also applies to livestock along with companion animals.


Couldn't agree more, dogs are generally treated like kings today by responsible owners compared with the past. They are fed well, get good medical attention when necesary and are usually house in their owners warm, comfortable homes. It is surely obvious that they will mature these days into much larger and better built dogs. Deerhounds must have had a very difficult time in the past, especially during the wars when food was scarce, so its no wonder that the dogs tended to be smaller. Surely nobody wants a return to these difficult times when dogs were smaller.

Rob B
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9 years 8 months ago #19687 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Some very good articles there,I recommend we all read them.
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9 years 8 months ago #19692 by chook
chook replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Just been pointed to this, its verry intresting,

ignore the adds at the top and scrool down, its from an old book.
the deerhound.
chestofbooks.com/animals/...-Deerhound.html



origanal full book.
chestofbooks.com/animals/...Dogs/index.html

Jane
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9 years 8 months ago #19695 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Very nice, but the information found in Capt Graham's work copy of a book which was later edited and published by Weston Bell is equally if not more interesting, especially for the photographs included
see under this link www.irishwolfhoundarchive...rhounds1879.htm
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9 years 8 months ago #19696 by Bodhranlady
Bodhranlady replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
That was very interesting chook. I immediately got out a tape measure and attempted to measure my two boys length, girth etc. They were having none of it and just wanted to play so I'll try again later.:)

Some of those length measurements seem a bit odd, i.e. too long for height. They almost conjure up a vision of a giant Dachshund :D
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9 years 8 months ago #19697 by Bodhranlady
Bodhranlady replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
That was very interesting chook. I immediately got out a tape measure and attempted to measure my two boys length, girth etc. They were having none of it and just wanted to play so I'll try again later.:)

Some of those length measurements seem a bit odd, i.e. too long for height. They almost conjure up a vision of a giant Dachshund :D
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9 years 8 months ago #19698 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
A very interesting article Chook.

I'd like to draw attention to page 20 of the article which implies that a larger dog was favoured at that time (Late 1800's).

The late Sir St.George Gore, a breeder of experience, was of opinion that the deerhound, of the present day (then not 2010) are far finer than they were thirty and fourty years ago; also that a dog could not then be found to run at 85lbs, whereas now the standard is from 90 to 100 lbs.

Rob B
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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #19712 by florent
florent replied the topic: Re:Working ability in Deerhounds
Hello, my english is not very good so, please apologize it, but my stopwatch is correct.
After past and history, these is present and maths.
In the french books and some french websites, you can read that deer speed is 65 to 75 km/h (40 to 47 m/ph). In UK and american books, and on UK and USA website you will see 25 to 35 m/ph (40 to 57 km/h). I had take my stopwatch, my GPS, chalk, movies camera, bangers and whistle and control that with our neighbours deers in the parc just next our garden, and i was going in the forest around our home and i test the wild deer speed. I must say that british and american measurement seems more honest and reasonable. I never keep time deer running over 50 km/h (31 m/ph), it is possible that scottish red deers (ligther than continental deers)are a little faster, and with a higher fright, i can admit 60 km/h (37 m/ph). Somme time i could control the speed after half a mile running, it was close to 40 km/h (25 m/ph). These measurement were observed in small mountains comparable to scottish highlands.
If you go to see deerhounds racing speed performance, on a flat ground, you will see the faster hounds (generally bitches) around 48 km/h (30 m/ph). Generally the speed is under 45 km/h (28 m/ph)for 500 meters. I have tested my dogs and bitches in the small mountains around our home, taking stopwatch, our just see them (always one deerhound alone) chase a group of deers. Sorry to say that 40 km/h (25 m/ph)are difficult to reach when ascent, for the deers it is not a problem to run over 45 km/h (27 m/ph). After half a mile, deerhounds are really under 40 km/h (25m/ph).
I had also observed that young deerhounds, 1 to 2 or 3 years old, are faster than adults in the climbing ground, and i admit that two young deerhounds can be efficients, but i note they are under 40 kg (90 lbs). It is incrédible how much the boys loose when they become over 45 kg (100 lbs).
It is also interesting to see the sighthounds which are still hunting big fast prey (USA and Australia), it is not a curious coincidence if they are not over 45 kg (100 lbs) and over 75 cm (30 inches).
To finish, if sometime, a big moderne deerhound catch a deer, it is not a proof, but an accident.
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