That was done by Cole, at that time (circa 1860) Gamekeeper/hound-keeper to Queen Victoria. He used a (black) Borzoi on Old Keildar to produce, amongst others in succesive generations, (Cole's)Hilda, (Graham's)Keildar etc.
See Pedigrees of Scottish Deerhounds, Graham and Weston Bell, 1894
Hickman in the late 1880's, (in Dalziell & various other sources), mentions the possibility of Borzoi being behind his Morni, but I suspect that is a reference to the same Cole cross (other than the Glengarry blood that precedes that - Pyrenean cross).
Interestingly, Mrs Bedwell (Rugby) has the following to say in Compton's The Twentieth Century Dog Vol 2 of 1904:-
I am not satisfied with modern type, except in a very few specimens. Prizes are given to great, coarse giants, with no true deerhound character about them. The breed is being ruined by crossing the deerhound with the borzoi and Irish wolf-hound. ...
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Interestingly, Mrs Bedwell (Rugby) has the following to say in Compton's The Twentieth Century Dog Vol 2 of 1904:-
I am not satisfied with modern type, except in a very few specimens. Prizes are given to great, coarse giants, with no true deerhound character about them.
Plus Ã§a change...
The following emphasizes the obligatory use at that time of a scale of points in judging Deerhounds (soon to be dispensed with), and the essential elegance of the true Deerhound.
Bedwell went on to say:-
If judged by the points as laid down by the club, deerhounds would soon improve and the bad specimens be weeded out. But judges appear to differ so greatly in what they consider the true type that it is quite hopeless to try and breed dogs to please all. I consider the deerhound, if a true deerhound, the most elegant and graceful of any breed of dog, and as a sporting companion it cannot be surpassed. It is most intelligent, wonderfully docile, and a clean house-guard.
Plus c'est la mÃªme chose.
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Many thanks for the 2 Link.
Many material for me to study.
Joerg and Yoki
Apparently both my mmory and eyesight need some help.
I remembered the reference to Krillut, but couldn't place it - its just a few pages up from the quote I gave by Mrs Bedwell from 1904 The Twentieth Century Dog
From Hood-Wright: Again, I have used a bitch bred by Her Grace the Duchess of Wellington, a cross between the Lochiel strain and the celebrated borzoi Ch. Krilutt, which I considered the most perfectly built dog of any breed of his time. This has been most satisfactory and the whelps, with on eighth Borzoi blood in them did not show the slightest trace of and less white than an ordinary deerhound
Now, I wonder why the Peaches have not put the "Black Borzoi" in as Old Keildar's mate for the breeding that produced Cole's Hilda/Hylda on their website pedigrees. I thought this had been confirmed by several sources. However "several sources" can often be narrowed down to one, ...
On the homepage from KILBOURNE DEERHOUNDS is an interesting article over "HISTORY of THE GREYHOUND IN OUR PEDIGREES".
Link to the article: kilbournedeerhounds.com/H...20PEDIGREES.htm
Joerg and Yoki
Cupples, George to Darwin, C. R.
11–13 May 1868
Answers CD's queries on difference in size of male and female Scottish deerhounds; female preference for larger males; details about ratio of sexes born. Quotes from letter of Archibald McNeill on difference in size of male and female Scotch deerhounds.
The Cottage | Guard Bridge | St Andrews | N.B.
May 11 / 68.
I felt highly honoured by your letter in reply to my offer of trivial service, and at the same time greatly gratified by its kind tone.f1
I had observed with much regret the reference in your preface to impaired health, and am sorry to find that this still continues. Having myself been more or less an invalid for twelve years, and a recluse (accidentally rendered lame for life,) I can the better enter into the loss which the world as well as yourself must sustain from this.f2
There is all the more reason for the suggestion that portions of your observation-work might be, as it were, ``given out'' to those willing servitors of all sorts whom you would find glad to do their little part in looking out around them for this purpose. It seems so to happen that Zoology is the most patent of all departments of science, whether to understand or observe in.
I am glad to say that I can give distinct answers so far to your queries. In addition to this I have written to three or four correspondents of the very best-qualified kind in regard to such statistics (including Mr McNeill, Scrope's authority—and the head-forester in the Breadalbane Forest, who has been forty years among red deer and Highland dogs.)f3
1. ``Inequality of size of the male and female Scotch Deerhound''? This runs from 2 to even 5 and 6 inches in shoulder-height—the female generally not exceeding 26 inches, the male rising even at the present day to 33. A single case of 30 inches height in the female is recorded in authentic pedigrees, and is thought astonishing.f4 The suggestion as to ``selection of size having possibly been applied to one sex more than the other'' strikes me as well worth consideration. The breed having been so very long devoted to the sole purpose of coursing after the red-deer stag—males, too, being both preferred and comparatively free for the purpose. As to the proportions in other (large) breeds of dogs (feral also) I shall inquire. Moreover, whether the fact can be traced far back? (The names of celebrated Celtic dogs are almost invariably those of males.)f5
2. A female deerhound now in my Kennel, which has 3 times had pups, has on each occasion shown a most decided and marked preference for one out of four deerhound dogs, free beside her—he being the largest and handsomest, though all were about their prime, and more or less capable. This favoured dog was at the same time the least eager of the four.f6 Much depends on the actions of the female.
3. The last remark applies of course in deciding which is to succeed, among the males. I believe the favoured dog would always have succeeded, if left to himself by the breeder. Generally speaking, when dogs are free to run about, strength, speed, and chance together, must decide the result.
3. ``Have you met with any careful statement as to the proportions of the sexes born?'' No—not having looked for it hitherto. My own experience has been independently leading me to the impression that there are more females born. This even before the occurrences of the last few days—viz. A deerhound bitch has lately pupped for the first time—4 pups, all bitches. Yesterday I had a letter from an English gentleman, a distinguished breeder of the same dogs—he says, ``My bitch has pupped to the Irish Wolfhound (one of the last remaining of that race), only 3, all bitches.''f7 Tonight I look for a litter from another bitch, and shall note the proportions. This same bitch has had two previous litters—one of 4 female and 1 male—another of 4 male and 3 females. (I shall note her new litter in this parenthesis, when they are born—4 males—3 females.) But I had forgot 1 bitch which I destroyed in the 2d. litter—so that out of 3 litters, this bitch has had a majority of 1 female in 19 pups. I notice that it is generally in a bitch's first litter that the majority of females has been decided, so far as I know hitherto.f8 During twelve years breeding, my experience of the puppies has been that the females exceeded the males in number—also that there are fewer deaths among them, if left to themselves while sucking and getting over distemper &c. The female is more forward and quick, as a pup—grows faster, gets to her size 6 months sooner, is more cunning, and as a rule, no dog ever attacks her. I am disposed to think she is less liable to infections, when in her ``periods'' or suckling her young. I have often wished to know whether hydrophobia ever originates with a bitch.—
The whole of the above relates to pure Deerhounds, and to deerhounds crossed distantly from the bloodhound, the Russian greyhound, the Russian retriever, and Old Irish greyhound. In connection, however, I give the case of a black-and-tan English terrier which I knew well. She formed an early attachment to a retriever, doing her best to have progeny from him—but failing, she ever afterwards refused dogs of her own size, taking refuge at home when pursued by them—and died a virgin. She repeatedly showed milk from her teats.f9
I saw the other day a young greyhound bitch, which had never had pups, suckling the pups of a Scotch terrier—who had been quite displaced, and came in modestly at the moment, to look on.
Another little incident I may give by the way, of Canaries. I had just got your letter, when my wife told me she had been seeing an old bootmaker in St Andrew's, a great breeder of canaries.f10 He pointed out to her four young birds, two yellow, and two grey—calling attention to the circumstance that the pairs of the same colour always sat, perched, or took their position in the nest together, side by side. If this is of any consequence, I can get all the facts.
In regard to dogs of any sort—cattle—red-deer, &c—I have various opportunities for procuring answers to any queries, and should do so with care and interest.
I may now venture to add a notion or two on the point as to character being (externally) influenced by the maternal imagination. It was rash on my part to express myself as a believer in this. I might rather have called myself a true sceptic on the point—in the sense of having come to believe neither way.f11 Formerly I believed the contrary—viz. that it was a mere ``devout imagination'' among women, who are strongly credulous about it. But I am told—1.—Of the case of my own father-in-law,f12 whose one hand was crooked-in and partially powerless (or, rather, partially beyond voluntary control)—from the (alleged) cause of his mother having seen a paralytic with a similar peculiarity, seated frequently in her view. His was a peculiar case, as he was otherwise a strong man, his pedigree being easily traceable on both sides, by the paternal side to the old Douglas family, in which he was a near representative of the Earls of Morton—his father being a Major at Gibraltar, and himself born an officer. (according to a now obsolete rule of the Service.).f13 2. Of a woman in a neighbouring village here, whom I have seen, and whose child is understood to have been born an idiot in consequence of her unexpectedly seeing an idiot child in a friend's house. 3. 4. & 5. Of other cases, of birthmarks among relatives of my wife— at all events curious incidents, whether superstitious or not.
I am not presuming to argue a point on which my knowledge is comparatively that of a mere child—indeed I am a partizan neither way—I only want to bring it forward to your notice, supposing it rather to tally with your views than otherwise. And as to the question whether it is consistent with law in other departments of nature—let Jacob's cattle be mythical, perhaps a Jewish reflection on the patriarch's characterf14—even admitting that grey rabbits are prevalent because of Natural Selection alonef15—yet what of the alleged variability of colour in the chameleon according to juxtaposition— the white colour of Alpine hares, ptarmigans, ermines &c—and the form and colour of leaf-insects &c.? It has often occurred to me that the grey or red tints of many feral animals—the heathery grey of the Deerhound—might partly be influenced by a tendency to assimilate with localities through instinct? Is there not a strong disposition throughout life to this Assimilation (centripetal force), corresponding to the Variations (centrifugal force)—somewhat as astronomically there is one law appearing to take opposite directions? I hazard all this in defence of the female imagination and its self-asserted sensibilities— the passivity in nature, let me suppose, as distinguished from activity?
Pray do not let my voluminous zeal deprive me of your patience on the one hand, or on the other give you the least trouble to answer out of courtesy. When I avail myself of your kind willingness to inform me for my Monograph, I shall do so specially and in a brief form—and hope to be allowed to send a copy of the book when it appears, months hence.f16 If you would care to have a Deerhound puppy of the best strain, I should have great pleasure in selecting and rearing one for you this season. I detain this letter another day in order to give statistics of the new litter—putting in meanwhile as a postscript some additional notes on Deerhounds.
Believe me, Dear Sir, | with all respect | yours very truly | George Cupples
Charles Darwin, Esqr.
Additional Memoranda on Deerhounds.
I find that the period of gestation can vary by at least a couple of days under or over the 63.
The purer the breed of Deerhounds, I think the fewer the puppies are likely to be—not at all from degeneracy, as marked by loss of size or quality, but the reverse. The larger the breed, the fewer the pups.
Distemper is a terrible foe to them.
I never heard of hydrophobia in Deerhounds.
The colours are now two—fawn, of various shades—grey of various shades—distinct in the individuals, and uniform, except as a slight brindle, or by black ``points''. Originally, grey of various shades would seem to have been the colour—but the existence of white marks can be traced into antiquity.
The difference of size in the two sexes—2 to even 5 inches height—seems immense, as an inch implies no trifle in itself to the other dimensions.
I forgot to mention above, about the two colours, that I have discovered that they are in some cases convertible—i.e. The fawn dog, at some period of its adult life, may in a short time become dark iron grey all over—with the fawn, no doubt, below. I have seen this in all stages.
There is a strong disposition to scrape and burrow in loose ground, or even in anything softer than pavement—and this particularly among the females.
The descriptions of the St Domingo feral dogs might be taken everyway for those of Scotch Deerhounds—in character as well as appearance.f17
Cases of pups in one litter from two different fathers seem not uncommon I notice that the female tends to be determined to some extent by custom, in favour of dogs she knows and has been associating with—her shyness & timidity are apt to affect her against strange dogs, so that at least some time is required to overcome this obstacle. The male, on the contrary, seems rather inclined the other way—is more eager towards a fresh entrant, a distant scent, or a new form.f18
Mayhew'sf19 experience confessedly refers to small dogs, fancy dogs, and ordinary sporting dogs—he disclaims knowledge of hounds.
A cross-bred bitch often has as many as 15 puppies at a litter.
I have said nothing of preferences by the Male towards the Female.— but shall keep it in view.
I had last night a (most annoying) proof of the force of Natural Selection, as running counter to Artificial. The 4 female pups, 12-days old, were of pure breed, from large-sized parents—the feeding had been most careful—and as 4 is a small number to be born, I meant to keep them all, expecting the very largest and strongest pups attainable as yet. The bitch must have littered 2 or 3 days before her time. One puppy was obviously smaller than the rest, though absolutely large—larger than usual—nothing wrong with it—all apparently well for 11 days. That night I heard the bitch restless and complaining, but unfortunately thought nothing of it at the time. Next day one pup seemed lying separate from the others— I examined all—saw nothing wrong—did not identify it as being the small one. At night I had to take the small one away—we did all we could for it—but it died quietly in the night. The comparative size and strength of the three others had been too much for it—loss of food and of warmth had been fatal to it, without any absolute defect, and certainly no want of milk in the mother, as 4 pups are a trifle. This I conceive to illustrate what must go on among wolves and wild dogs.
The old Highland chiefs, & modern noblemen also, doubtless thinned out their litters most relentlessly—to which was added, their jealousy and stinginess as to diffusing their breeds. This helped to degenerate in the end. But perhaps it may have tended to develope the size of the dog—even the disproportion of the bitch?
%%CExtract from ``Dogs: their Management'' by Edward Mayhew M.R.C.V.S. Editor of %%C``Blaine's Veterinary Art.'' page 187--192. 2d Edition. Routledge. 1864f24 %%CIn reference to sexual differences sexual inclinations &c
``Little gentlemen are said to incline towards what are termed fine women; and many persons will remember the caricature, in which a strapping Life-guards-man was depicted, stooping to salute a lady who scarcely reached the top of his boots. The like admiration for bulk appears to be entertained by the members of the canine race. Small curs are much disposed to bestow their affections upon huge Newfoundlands; and diminutive bitches, if followed by a host of suitors, will give the preference to the largest of the group. All descriptions of dogs will freely have intercourse with one another; and as these animals are of such various proportions, the female is frequently unable to give birth to the progeny of a gigantic sire. Care consequently should be taken to provide suitable males when pups are desired; and in all cases the dog should be smaller than the bitch. It is not, however, a sufficient precaution that the dog be of less size; for it, or the bitch herself, may be the dwarf of a large stock, and being so may be capable of getting or gestating offspring as huge as the race from which either of them sprung. It is possible, therefore, for a small dog to be quite as dangerous as one of great weight; and I knew an animal of this kind which has been the caus of many deaths on that account. The animal alluded to was the property of a gentleman (now deceased) who had long graced the bench. The dog was a handsome Scotch terrier; and being small, it was frequently solicited as a stock-dog. It was, however, very deceptive; for a bitch twice its own size could with difficulty survive the consequences of its embraces. It is a diminutive example of a naturally large race; and in its offspring there is a disposition to return to the original size. Therefore, not only must the dog be small, but, if possible, it must have been derived from a small stock. The giant's dwarf may beget a giant; and how frequently do parents of short stature have children who can at maturity look literally over their heads! Certainly more important however than the size of the dog, is the magnitude of the stock whence the bitch is derived. A full-sized pug bitch, whose portrait is given beneath, had connexion with a setter dog. She was sent to me to be delivered; but with little assistance the affair was accomplished. A small mongrel bitch, but a great favourite with its <master, broke loose during his absence, and had connexion with a dog at least four times its size. The animal was brought to me to ascertain what could be done, her death being expected when the nine weeks expired. At the proper period, however, she brought forth>f25 four pups without any assistance. On the opposite side, numerous instances might be quoted: but, on this topic, enough has been said to warn the reader that the dog, however small, should not be permitted to approach the bitch whose mother was large, or whose brothers and sisters stand much higher than herself. Let the reader look at the two portraits that follow. They are evidently of one and the same family. They both had a common progenitor. The beagle is the blood-hound, only of a smaller size; and often these beautiful diminutive creatures suffer in parturition, or throw pups whose size takes from them all value. However, for the chance of security, if for no more tangible object, let the dog, in every instance, be smaller than the bitch; and let it also have no disease; but be in perfect health, strong and lively.f26
The bitch, for breeding, should be rather long in the back; and it is scarcely possible for her to be made too wide in the hind-quarters. She should be strong, and rather large than small of her breed; and where a diminution of size is desired, it is better to obtain it through the father than the mother. When the last method is adopted there is no danger of the bitch bearing pups of gigantic proportions, and which she may not be capable of bringing forth. The breed, also, should be as pure as possible; for there is a disposition in these animals to throw back, as it is termed; that is, supposing a bitch to be of spaniel breed, to that degree which allows of no cross being detected; nevertheless if there should be a stain of cur or terrier in her pedigree, one or more of every litter she bears may prominently exhibit it. It is often long before this natural proof of a degraded family can be entirely eradicated; and it is very common for persons to express surprise at the pups born resembling neither of the parents they derived from.
Another caution not to be neglected is, to keep the bitch from all communication with dogs it is wished her progeny should in no way resemble. A low-bred playmate may not appear to be of much consequence; and the proprietor may imagine, if actual connexion is provided against, no further precaution can be required. The females of the canine race, how<ever, are able to bestow their affections; and tender recollections are as potent over them as they are known to be in other cases, where higher animals are concerned. Bitches are not always prudent in their loves, but are apt to fling themselves away on curs of low degree. If reared with a companion of vulgar appearance, there often springs up between the pair a devotion which no time can afterwards subdue. The passion, for such it really is, becomes of a more than romantic endurance. The loved one's image grows to be so impressed upon the mind—so much so, that all>f27 the fruits of the body afterwards bear its likeness. There may have been no intercourse between the pair, but to animals of her breed, the bitch may, contrary to her longings, have been devoted: and yet, in the offspring she brings forth the object of her affections will be represented. This, however, is very likely to be the case, when the first male accepted is by accident or neglect of impure origin. There have been several well-marked cases illustrative of this fact, and probably many which have never been properly observed. The peculiarity of a high-bred bitch bringing forth a blemished litter, would be set down to her throwing back; but perhaps a fair proportion of the cases thus accounted for, might with justice be attributed to the mental influence which has been pointed out.f28
The animal has then ``heat'', or œstrum, upon her, and her system is generally excited. She is more lively, and should any other dogs be with her, she indulges in a variety of coquettish antics. Her attitudes when thus excited are very picturesque, and the beauty of the animal is never exhibited to greater advantage. A lively grace animates her whole frame; and she is now the creature a painter should study, or a poet describe. She will not immediately accept the male, whose passion she evidently practises all her arts to excite. For a few days, perhaps, a romping courtship may go forward before union is actually permitted.''
If I recollect rightly, some of the best facts in dog-breeding are to be found in the Manual on dogs by ``Stonehenge'' (Editor of the Field) pubd., I think, by Routledge— I refer only to the portion on Greyhounds.f29
Mayhew is a minute but conceited and crotchety writer— I had not read the passages I have had copied for you, till on happening to look into the book, I was surprised by their coincidence with my own impressions in some respects.
CD's letter to Cupples has not been found. See letter from George Cupples, 1 May 1868. At the American Philosophical Society there is an envelope addressed to Cupples in Emma Darwin's hand, postmarked at Bromley `MY 6 68'.
Cupples was suffering from the after-effects of a disease of the hip-joint that he contracted in 1857 or before (Cupples 1894, pp. 310, 326).
Cupples refers to Archibald McNeill and William Scrope (see letter from George Cupples, 1 May 1868 and n. 5). The head-forester of Breadalbane Forest was Peter Robertson (letter from George Cupples, 13 July 1868). His other correspondents were probably John Wright (see letter from George Cupples, 26 May 1868) and J. G. R. Barr (see letter from J. G. R. Barr to George Cupples [after 11 May 1868?]).
Cupples continued to write to CD about the sizes of male and female deerhounds. CD gave figures in Descent 2: 261, but used those sent by Cupples in his letter of 11 March 1869 (Correspondence vol. 17).
CD cited Cupples for this information in Descent 2: 262.
CD reported this case in Descent 2: 271.
For some of Cupples's English deerhound-breeding correspondents, see Cupples 1894, pp. 58--9.
In the phrase `4 male and 3 females', Cupples has written the `3' in red over a crossed-out `2'. `—4 males—3 females' is also written in red, as is, `But I had forgot … hitherto.'
CD reported this case in Descent 2: 271.
Cupples's wife was Anne Jane Cupples. The bootmaker has not been identified.
See letter from George Cupples, 1 May 1868 and n. 6.
Douglas's parents have not been identified. The earls of Morton had the family name Douglas (Burke's peerage). Until 1871, commissions in the British army were usually purchased, although there were a varying number of non-purchase commissions available, which could be granted to the sons of officers. However, commissions were not supposed to be given or sold to persons under sixteen. (Houlding 1981, p. 103, Holmes 2001, pp. 157--63.)
See Gen. 31:32--41. Jacob had agreed with Laban that Jacob would have all the speckled or spotted progeny born among Laban's flocks, members of the flock that were themselves speckled or spotted having first been removed to a distance. Jacob put speckled rods before the eyes of the animals when they mated, with the result that they bore speckled progeny.
CD discussed the vulnerability of white rabbits and other white animals to predators in Variation 2: 229--30.
See letter from George Cupples, 1 May 1868 and n. 4.
CD mentioned Charles Hamilton Smith's discussion of the feral dogs of San Domingo in Variation 1: 28.
CD cited Cupples for the information about female dogs' preference for familiar male dogs, and male dogs' preference for unfamiliar female dogs in Descent 2: 271. The paragraph including information on preference (`Cases of pups … new form.') was on a slip of paper glued to the top of this page of the enclosure, which would otherwise have begun with this paragraph.
McNeill refers to William Scrope's Art of deer stalking (Scrope 1838). See letter from George Cupples, 1 May 1868 and n. 5.
CD cited McNeill on this point in Descent 2: 262.
Mayhew's Dogs: their management was first published by Routledge in 1854. There is no record of a second edition or of an 1864 reprint. Cupples may refer to the 1858 reprint, which was the first after 1854 (Mayhew 1858). Cupples also refers to Blaine 1854.
This section was excised from the enclosure and has been supplied from Mayhew 1858, pp. 188--9; it is the reverse of the first part of the next missing section (see n. 27, below).
The remainder of this paragraph and the one following were omitted from Cupples's transcription.
This section was excised from the letter and has been supplied from Mayhew 1858, p. 191. CD quoted this section in Descent 2: 270.
A paragraph was omitted from the transcription at this point. On the effects of maternal imagination, see also the letter from George Cupples, 1 May 1868 and n. 6.
`Stonehenge' was the pseudonym of John Henry Walsh, editor of the Field. Cupples may refer to his The dog in health and disease, which was published by Longman, Green, Longman, and Roberts (J. H. Walsh 1859): chapter 2, `Domesticated dogs hunting chiefly by the eye, and killing their game for man's use', is principally about greyhounds. Walsh also wrote a book on the greyhound (J. H. Walsh 1853).
CD hypothesised that characteristics transmitted to only one sex were developed late in life. See, for the application of this hypothesis to goats and deer-hounds, Descent 1: 293 and 2: 260.
Lucas: probably Prosper Lucas (see Descent 2: 272). Walker: probably Alexander Walker; CD read his book on intermarriage (Walker 1838) in 1839 (Correspondence vol. 4, Appendix IV, 119: 5a) and noted his citation of Delabere Pritchett Blaine (ibid., 119: 7v; see n. 25, above).
Joerg and Yoki + Lucy