Deerhounds evolution

Hi Fiddle, thank you for this nice old pictures.
Griselda, or Grizelda was a strangeness and it's possible she was a "hidden-brindle", a brindle who was looking fawn, but carrier brindle-brindle. It is very rare.
Otherwise i don't understand where fawn is coming from, because in her pedigree only one gran-gran father, Rory from Canada, was unknow, and the rest were probably brindle. So how explain the fawn appearance. Also the fact that her and her sister Heatha and the numerous inbreeding marriage with this line had give no fawn reinforce "hidden-brindle" theory.
I would like to say how much i like Fiddle's breeding. Especially about reasonable size and correct rectangle format, but also for head quality and many other points.
I will never forget Ch. Fritzens Highland Ghillie and Fabulous BOB at German Breedshow; Ch. Fritzens Kate for example.
I join a picture of Ch. Fritzens Kate for pleasure...

And what a pleasure she is! Beautful looking bitch. Thanks Florent

First, that is not Miss Edwards, it is Marjorie Bell. She was a well known breeder in the UK, starting the Enterkine kennel in 1924. She spent some time in the USA (in 1936)but also hunted in East Africa (1929), India (1932) and was a wonderful woman to talk to and a great name in Deerhounds. I met her in the 1970's and she was still a force to be reconded with. I recall a wonderful comment that she made at a Breed Show discussion about liking lots of hair on a Deerhound because it helped hide any conformation faults. I suspect the photo was taken in the late 20's early 30's and was one of the last wheaten's known. Somewhere I have the name of that wheaten Deerhound, and yes,I do know to Miss Bell's sorrow, that she never had pups. ~Barb (Fernhill)

And second:), didn’t you read what I wrote a couple of days ago about my typing error?
Björn (Fritzens)

In a very brief response to “florent’s” remarks on Deerhound Evolution posted “1 Month, 2 Weeks ago” (...a bit late, but we don't often get on-line)I would just like to point out the following:-
1. The date of the foundation of the UK Deerhound club has never been accurately recorded, it was however before 1892 (the date of the first official breed standard). It is traditionally celebrated as having been founded in 1886 (not 1892/1990 as “florent” claimed).
2. The first breed standard was indeed drawn up in 1892, by club members Hickman and Hood-Wright. However, it was certainly not modified in 1901 as “florent” claimed – on the contrary, that very same standard was formally “approved and endorsed” by the Club in 1901.
3. At that time the height for dogs and bitches remained the same: 28-30inches or more for dogs, and 26inches upwards for females - as they were originally described in 1892. It is important to note here that the dog size given in the original standard as, .. 30inches or more ..., definitely exceeds that of the true working Highland dog of the mid to late 19th century.
4. Although the Minute Books on Club official proceedings for the earliest years have been lost, and some of the later years recently went missing - so proof is now difficult to find - other published sources have narrowed major changes in the breed standard to the date of circa 1914. At which time the following were changed: a) the points system of judging on a scale to100 max. was dispensed with; b) the heights were changed, males 30-32 or more .., females 28 inches upwards..; weights slightly modified; c) the descriptive “Points of the Deerhound” (in order of importance), were appended to the standard, but are and were not a part of the breed standard.
5. “florent” notes “2000/2010 Fawn definitely disappears”. That must be a typo for 1900/1910. Close reading of the UK Kennel Club Gazette on Deerhound judging appears to confirm the definite loss of the other breed colours than grey in the show ring, to be around that time frame, to circa 1930 at the latest - despite anecdotal reports of so-called reds and fawns surfacing in later years.
As an answer to “florent’s” interest in a response from other Deerhound enthusiasts – yes, the increase, and continuing increase in height, has certainly not improved the breed as far as: function, show quality, or health are concerned. Of course you now have the most modified and abbreviated standard for the breed with the present UK and FCI version, consequently historic values have been lost to many judges, breeders and enthusiasts. Cross-breeding has interesting possibilities, and as others have remarked will be difficult (and costly!) to implement in the framework of the official Kennel Clubs’ Studbooks. However, with the recent UK controversy (BBC – Crufts) and emphasis on the negative aspects of severe inbreeding in pedigree dogs - who knows? The changes to the standard over time will be discussed in our forthcoming book on Deerhounds.Gruss! Richard (February 22, 2009 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.)

I am very sorry for huge mistakes and numerous errors i did.
Please excuse-me Richard.
Good luck for your book.
I'll buy it, of course.

Also thank you every body for soft answers, humour, and advices.
Florent

Not being a breeder , just a deerhound lover , owner and observer I would love the seize going down again - given the bones are strong and everything else stays in balance . To me , a long time dog -owner/-enthusiast/-lover , the "giants " just do seem to be a tad more vulnerable , a bit less sound most often . An interesting ideafor sure and I wish you luck ! I also wish , that some other "breeds would come to their senses" and get away from all those exaggerations that have krept in over the decades , often producing specimens , that seem barely able to walk , let alone to reproduce and live a good , healthy life .

Pas de probleme Florent, not "huge mistakes"! It's difficult to find and ascertain much of this data. We agree on the important things - and we agree that these things are important! Thank you for your interest in our book. I should have checked your profile before answering - I thought you were an old coursing friend from Germany, from my time in Europe. Bonne chance, Richard

Thank Richard, i had meet Barbara at Switzerland Breedshow, 2 or 3 years ago and i am very interesting about Oliver's breeding at Kennel Atzberg in Austria.
Vos quelques mots de français sont charmants.
Florent

Florent mentioned Bjorn's Fritzen's Highland Gillie. I only saw him at the 2004 Breed Show, but was instantly smitten. For sheer type and soundness, William was one of the best Deerhounds I've ever seen and he's one of the two or three models I keep in mind every time I judge. Any chance of a photograph, Bjorn?

Hi Sid,

this is a photo we like very much. Björn

YES !
Once again...
I remenber him at French breeshow too, he did well.

Yes! That's the boy! Cheers, Bjorn.

What a gorgous lad.

OK so who has a DH that can outrun a sulkies, borzoi or greyhound and does that dog have any puppies? Is this DH still alive? Did this DH tear its body up or is it still running? If it does not then that is what I am looking for.
My wife has a borzoi and I want a DH that can keep up or out run her, “her dog that is.” Unfortunately this year we saw at West M. dog show that the same thing happening to the DH is starting to happen to the Borzoi with or without breed standards. They have lost their shoulder, top line, bone and are too big to run. Where do i find a good working/running dog? Or should I give up and get a staghound, they are still not registered and have kept their functionality?

photo removed

My Girl "Tess" Leoch Falla has run with Afghans and she made her certification run with a Borzoi and came in ahead of him. She ran with a Saluki once and was right beside it when they stopped the course because she looked at it. For some reason she does not like Salukis. She stays with my lurcher "Aeriss" who was clocked at 36mph by a radar gun--So do ya think she meets your request. Her grandsire was Coronach Pennies Chieftain. Her breeders are in Scotland. She stands about 29+ inches and weighs about 73 lbs, and is three years old. We'er off for a trial now so I won't be responding til Monday.

Alex wrote:

OK so who has a DH that can outrun a sulkies, borzoi or greyhound and does that dog have any puppies? Is this DH still alive? Did this DH tear its body up or is it still running? If it does not then that is what I am looking for.
My wife has a borzoi and I want a DH that can keep up or out run her, “her dog that is.” Unfortunately this year we saw at West M. dog show that the same thing happening to the DH is starting to happen to the Borzoi with or without breed standards. They have lost their shoulder, top line, bone and are too big to run. Where do i find a good working/running dog? Or should I give up and get a staghound, they are still not registered and have kept their functionality?

Hi Alex, I think I got hold of the wrong end of the stick recently. Anyway, if you're talking about long distance running, a salukie would be hard to beat but its designed for a different job to a DH, and I don't know a lot about borzois, but I suspect that at the end of 24 hours, a good DH would be up there with the front runners. I know that there are some very good DH's out there, some even get into the show ring.

I am blown away; I have never seen a deerhound who looked so like my Isla. Her sire, Odin, who I beleive was of Kilbourne stock, passed that tail on to numerous of his progeny. The coat is lighter, than Isla, but the general confirmation is so similar. Her dam is from coyote hunting stock. She is 29 inches but only weighs in at 33 kilos. The result is a blisteringly fast dog. I have a large, ex racing greyhound and he can only catch Isla on a perfect surface, if he is the pursuit dog; if she is in pursuit, she will out run him every time and he is quite incapable of matching her in stamina,agility,intelligence, strategic planning, and scenting ability. In the 19th century a good Deerhound was expected to be as fast as a greyhound and to have the nose of a bloodhound. Courses could last many miles over the roughest of terraine and these are the qualities I would like to see restored to the breed. If anyone is thinking in terms of outcrossing, I thing the Chart Polski might be worth considering.

florent wrote:

....

1850/1870; .....
-Around 1855/1860 first Borzoï cross.
-Around 1865/1866 second Borzoï cross.


1870/1900; ...
-Around 1890, third Borzoï cross.
....

Hello florent,

Very intersting message over the Deerhound evolution.

Have verification in the literature over the 3 Borzoï crosses.
If yes, can you post please the sources?

Many thanks for your efforts.



Best regards
Joerg and Yoki