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TOPIC: Deerhounds evolution

Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4019

My research on deerhound make me to note;
1800/1850; -Deerhounds were often fawn.
-Males size was 65 to 75 cm.
-Over 76 cm deerhounds are not good to hunt(and the size of actual kangaroodogs, coyote and stag hounds prove the same).
-Female size was 60 to 65 cm
-Coat look short, 2 to 6 cm.

1850/1870; -Deerhounds were often fawn.
-Males size was 69 to 77 cm.
-Males weight was 38 to 45 kg.
-Females size was 66 to 73.5 cm.
-Females weight was 30 to 38 kg.
-Around 1855/1860 first Borzoï cross.
-Around 1865/1866 second Borzoï cross.
-Coat become 4 to 8 cm.

1870/1900; -Deerhounds became more elegant.
-Around 1890, third Borzoï cross.
-Fawn colour almost disapear.

1892/1900; -First Deerhound Club was created.
-First standard was created.
-Coat become 6 to 10 cm.

1901; -Modification of the standard about size.
-Males 71 minimum become 76 cm, 95% of the dogs were suddenly too small and 100%
will be unable to hunt correctly.
-Females 66 minimum become 71 cm, 90% of the bitches were sudenly too small.

2000/2010; -Fawn definitivly disapear.
-Dog size is generally 80 to 90 cm.
-Dog weight is 45 to 60 kg.
-female size is often 75 to 82 cm.
-Male; Shows winners are often around 85 cm, and almost never under 80 cm.
-Female; Shows winners are often close to 80 cm, almost never under 75 cm.
-Shows winners get generally a lot of furnishing and coat.
-A lot of judges can say this dog is too small for a dog between 76 to 80 cm.
-A lot of judges can say this female is too small when she's 71 to 75 cm.

For me 2000/2008 were the years of thinking about our breed, and 2009 will be the year of the first actions. I will breed to diminuate size, (but i will try to get lenght and substance).
I really think that 71 to 75 is enough for females and 76 to 80 is the best for the dogs.
And more delicate, is to recreate fawn colour, so, of course crossing is necessary.
I am very interesting to know what deerhound's people think about my view of the modern and future deerhounds.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4020

I think that this has been discussed a lot in some of the previous posts. Look at Deerhound chat page 3 or 4, pages 3 and 4 of building a kennel, or something with kennel in the topic. Both breeding and the sizes of The breed are discussed. It' been done in some of the others too.

My thoughts are, that, yes the dogs are getting too big. Mine are from mainly working stock/coursing bloodlines (Doxhope and Leoch) and are 70, 74 cm height and weigh in the mid 70 pound range. One lure-courses and is in the top twenty Deerhounds in ASFA rankings for the '08 year. But when we go to shows we tend to get overlooked, though they have been Reserve Bitch on several occasions.

I would to know where you got your information on the Early dogs. Whhich publications?
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4023

HI terry I have a Doxhope D/H Lana or Doxhope Lady Elana her mother was Doxhope Ambecky and I hear the best coursing D/H/ that Bill bread. Lana will be 11 at the end of March she is fit and well and enjoying a pampered life with us
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4024

Hi Annette,

It's nice to hear from another Doxhope person. I have Alice, Doxhope Lady of Lewis. She will be seven on the 30th. She came over with her sister Doxhope Lustre, who a friend has. We didn't start showing them until they were 3. Funny thing is that the sister, in comformation shows, got her championship in just a few shows and Alice got reserve bitch a good number of times but was never a winner. I took Alice lure coursing as we have no live/open field coursing in my part of the country and she showed very interest in it. But definitely wants to chase live things,cats,etc. which we can't do and we don't have any opportunity to go after the wild things. On the other hand, Tess, Leoch Falla, goes like a fiend after the lure or live things. One of her grandsires was Coronach Pennies Chieftan, whho I understand was one of the number one coursers there. Any rate they are both beautiful girls.

Would like to see pics. of your Lana. Alice is the picture on my posts. And there pictures of Tess else--where on the site. And as soon as I have them, I'm going to post some where she won Best of Breed lure coursing on 27,28, of Dec. She's my Boxing Day baby--she turned three then as we were traveling to the trial.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4025

The problem with what you are proposing (I'm not saying if it's right or wrong), is that the kennel club control the breed standard and however you to propose to introduce the changes, (and especially cross breeding) the resultant dog , will not be accepted because it doesn't match the standard. I applaud your efforts as I believe it is a noble cause, but I think you are on one man crusade. At the end of the day, if you breed and keep dogs that you like the look of and perform well in a desired function, then that is all anyone can ask.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4026

Hi Terry I have just put a couple of pics of Lana on the site today and another last friday it has taken me some time to master this but I think I have cracked it! Lana has no interest in chasing anything she is even very friendly to my 2 guiena pigs although she belonged to a game keeper until she was over 7 so she was worked on a regular basi. When she lived with my brother (Before they emigrated to Australia and Lana came to live with us) and his D/H Ghillie they caught a cat that luckily got away when my sister in law shouted at them (lucky cat) but then again it was trying to get baby birds! Your right about your 2 girls they are beautiful. Regards Annette
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4053

CiCoch I believe that the colours are still mentioned in the standard even if they don't exist. In Australia you can approach the Kennel Association and put in a proposal for crossing. It is a slow and laborious thing to take on though, particularly with a giant breed as it takes so long for a bitch to reach breeding age. I think (though don't quote) that you need a 5 generations from the original cross back to pure before they will be recognised. This would take easily 10 years if done ethically ie waiting for the bitch to be at LEAST 2 years old before breeding. I would love to see the red with black tips back.
As for size you are restricted by the standard.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4068

I remembered this from the Deerhound L list discussion group & found in the November archives
www.thekennelclub.org.uk/...hsdeerhound.pdf
which notes a particular individual of 16 years and 9 months! And we record
that in our piece in "The Claymore": Longevity in Scottish Deerhounds.
May/June 2007:pp15-18, available as a pdf. Was this the same very exceptional
individual? Whatever, I do find it suspect, but maybe it was a genuine age and
a genuine thoroughbred. Stranger things have happened.
On size, the historic size of truly functional Deerhounds is a matter of
record. Anywhere between 28 to a maximum of 30" at the shoulder was the best
size for an efficient running male. I emphasise "male", as they were larger
and more frequently used than the correspondingly smaller females. The
required size of the show Deerhound in the standard was fudged, and then
increased for obvious reasons - size dominates in the show ring. This too is a
matter of historical record.
Does that significant increase in size affect longevity? There has been some
discussion in biology whether size itself in the same species influences life
expectancy. I believe the answer is still not clear, maybe the question is too
simple. The suspicion is, at least with dogs, the larger they get the more
health problems they can expect to encounter, which will negatively influence
their life expectancy.
And then there's the quality of life, as inversely related to age ...
Richard
www.fernhill.com/
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4482

I agree I think we are seeing quite a few tall Scottish Deerhounds currently some with substance, depth and good angulation others not. In terms of the dogs function is that a problem? Well, yes it could be.

I thought I’d look at this in a different way so I’ve had a very superficial go to examine the requirements for human runners and see what, if any, parallels could be drawn obviously ignoring the 4 legs vs 2 differences! So in reality probably not many similarities but here goes anyway.

In summary - Sprinters are muscular and lean.
They have to produce a lot of power, so they need a large muscle mass. But they don't want to carry any excess weight, so they need to keep themselves lean.
Sprinters have high muscular definition and good flexibility, which ensures that movements are technically efficient.
Most sprinters are taller than average, but they're not giants. A typical world-class male sprinter is 1.83m tall and 75-80kg.
Distance runners are lean and have great endurance.
Distance runners don't need to produce much power, but they do need to carry their own weight over a long distance.
So they don't need much muscle and they need to be lean.
Their leg power is low - the muscles have great endurance, but don't produce force quickly like a sprinter's.
Most distance runners are average height. Being exceptionally tall doesn't seem to be an advantage - many world-class runners, like Haile Gebrselassie, are below average height (he is 1.6m or 5 foot three inch).
From news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low...ved/4253508.stm

Looking at it simplistically deerhounds who do need to produce speed again shouldn’t be giants. Traditionally, height has been seen as a detriment to sprinting for people. The formula for speed is stride length times stride rate. But now look what’s happened Usain Bolt has arrived with 2 gold olympic medals and he is 6 foot 5 inches (1.96m)!

So perhaps from this we shouldn’t be so worried about height in Deerhounds as long as the dog still has the right angulation, substance etc which is needed for their correct function. But I think we should still watch out in the long term for ever increasing heights Usain Bolt or not!
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4491

Having long legs is good if you want to run in a straight line, but it's not so good when your chasing quarry. Whether your chasing the lowly rabbit or a majestic stag, you have to match them for speed AND agility. I'd like to see a 6'6" man catch a chicken !!! :P
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4540

If in fact the larger size of the hound affects it's agility and speed then whippets and basenji's should dominate lure coursing events.That does not seem to be the case, so if the body is balanced properly and there is sufficient angulation of the rear shouldn't the larger the dog is be more of an advantage.

Don
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4700

Good news the fawn deerhound has been found....:unsure: ;)

www.epupz.co.uk/clas/view...asp?view=238271

Just in case the link doesn't work



For sale one male "Deerhound"
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4701

For sale, one male Deerhound? Aye, right.

Still, £100 for a half decent lurcher's not too bad a price.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 5 months ago #4704

I have seen a 6foot 6 inch man catch many chickens, he did in fact keep a flock of in excess of 300.

Balance is the key, a hound must have the correct length to height ratio with a strong wide rear end, excellant width of thigh and second thigh along with a good thick rudder.
Good well laid back shoulder, return of upper arm, good ribbing well let back with SPRING. for heart and lung room.

If I find that in a Deerhound 28 inch tall, and not in a hound of 32 inches tall the first one gets it, however if I find that in the hound of 32 inches that covers a huge amount of ground in one stride he gets it.

Balance Balance is the key my view on colour is there are far more important things to get right, the way of getting the Wheaten back is by going to the Wolfhound PRAY GOD NO ONE DOES THIS. I actually think it may of already been done, which is a real worry.

Do not get hung up with height thinking if you change the height of the hounds everythink else will be perfect it will not be.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 4 months ago #5375

Ok Ardneish about Irish-Wolfhound, i think modern deerhound are too tall, and become coach potatoes, so using IW would be a disaster.
Balance it's an abstract concept, when there is a deerhound straight, fore and hind, few people think "at least this dog is balanced", other think "there is nothing good about angle on it", and when there is a deerhound straight in front and well angulated back, few people think "this dog is not balanced", and other think "at least hindquarter is correct"....
Balanced is the key which authorize an artistic view of the breed, so people can speak about dogs like about painting, sculpture, and Art. But it's a mistake to think about dogs like we can think about Art. Some dogs have an utility, or had be use, and our (breeders and judges) mission is also to keep the aptitude of the breed. And to be clear, and not hypocrite, over 45 kg, dogs (not only sighthounds) aren't able to run fast, there is no speed, no endurance, no agility. Especially when ground is not flat, in mountain, forest,...injury's risk augment. Also growing becomes sensible and longevite reduce.
We should not forget the maximum about size and weight because this amnesia is the reason of a lot of misery in the breed.
I respect the Elders, but i dare to say they do some mistakes, loosing the fawn colour, crossing with borzoïs, augmenting the size,...
Respect is not blindness.
I really hope that will be redress.
John Sargent Noble (1848-1896).the end of the day. The sort of deerhounds i like.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 4 months ago #5378

Hi Florent, very interesting that you discuss the height, structure and substance in modern Deerhounds compared with those that were measured some hundred years ago. When I look at the records of Weston Bell and Captain Graham I always wonder – do we have to light weight Deerhounds? As you know ours are more likely to be reckoned as not being tall.
Talking about colour:
Miss Noble told me once that she was a bit upset looking back to her Deerhound x Greyhound cross that she didn’t think also about introducing the wheaten colour again.
Here is a photo of a purebred wheaten Deerhound bitch with Miss Margret Edwards (Enterkine) that sadly never produced any offspring.
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 4 months ago #5440

Nice photo.Would anyone happen to know the year this was taken.

Don
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 4 months ago #5450

Very sorry for my mistake; it is of course Miss Marjory Bell and some of her Enterkine hounds.
The wheaten bitch is Grizelda of Enterkine. She had one litter by Stuart of Bridge Sollers.
Grizelda was born 15.11.1932. As far as I know did her children not have any offspring.
But Grizelda had a litter sister Heatha of Enterkine. She had a litter where Arsaig of Rotherwood was the sire. That litter produced Bracken of Rotherwood, and there the line continues. So it should be still there in the genes…………………………

P.S. Miss Edwards had the Manshay kennel
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 4 months ago #5453

Doesn't the wheaten deerhound just look so different? Is it my imagination or is the coat slightly less hairy (looking again it is probably a trick of the coat colour). What does strike me though is that this wheaten deerhound looks very like my deerhound x greyhound who I realise now could be a dark shadow coat on top of a wheaten background (if that makes sense). I must post a picture of him.

It is such a shame that there is not the great variet of colours in the deerhound. I am quite lucky as Clunie, who is 14 months now, still seems to be keeping a lot of her almost black (or blue) and brindle colour - although there is grey too. She may become more grey yet?

However I agree with Ardneish thatt here is more important things to worry about that dog colour.
Sorry for the ramble!
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Re:Deerhounds evolution 8 years 4 months ago #5462

This is a very interesting thread, It's good to see everyones thoughts, but as CiCoch says "It's the kennel club that control the breed standard" and this is where the sharing of ideas and concerns should be concentrated. Any problems with health or temperament should be addressed promptly by the people who know and love the breed. The kennel Club need to take their lead from the people owning the dogs. It is shameful that the KC chose to react to the fanatical media frenzy whipped up by money motivated TV undercover detectives. Lets not kid ourselves that we didn't know there were problems that needed addressed, it's just a pity that it took media mania to bring about change.
OK I'll shut up now (You might have guessed I'm not a fan of 'undercover TV'

Good Luck Florent, you seem to have your hounds best interests at heart and that can only be a good thing. I hope you can find a way round the KC thing.
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