Colours of Scottish Deerhound's

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8 years 2 months ago #26236 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
The dog in the foreground is the Scottish Deerhound, Marquis of Lorne, pupped in 1891.

In the background the Irish Wolfhound, Ch. Lady of Raikeshill, pupped in 1926.
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8 years 1 week ago #28572 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Saw this white Deerhound today on the web.

www.breederretriever.com/...with-white-coat

Rob B

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8 years 1 week ago - 8 years 1 week ago #28573 by Spring
Spring replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Is that a deerhound???
Last Edit: 8 years 1 week ago by Spring.

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8 years 1 week ago - 8 years 1 week ago #28574 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Spring wrote:

Is that a deerhound???


It says so and does look like one. I've seen white wolfhounds but this one doesn't look stocky enough to me although I could be wrong.

Rob B
Last Edit: 8 years 1 week ago by Robb.

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8 years 1 week ago #28583 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
I would say the dog in the link is definitely an Irish Wolfhound - the balance is all wrong for a Deerhound. Light fawn is also an accepted IW colour.

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8 years 1 week ago #28585 by Trowsahound
Trowsahound replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Does anyone know if it would ever be possible to breed the wheaten colour back in again? I am not familiar with kennel club rules, but it seems to me a bit of genetic diversity could be a good thing anyway, but I suspect they would'nt think so?! There are some lovely wheaten lurchers out there that look VERY like deerhounds....

BTW I recently went to Abbotsford where Sir Walter Scott had commissioned a ceramic model of 'Maida' his favourite deerhound - and she had white all over her neck and shoulders! I often wonder why this is a problem in the breed too? If its OK on the chest why not on the shoulders? It obviously was'nt considered a problem in Sir Walter Scott's day, and that's when they were using them for hunting properly!

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8 years 1 week ago #28589 by Sid
Sid replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Trowsahound wrote:

Does anyone know if it would ever be possible to breed the wheaten colour back in again? I am not familiar with kennel club rules, but it seems to me a bit of genetic diversity could be a good thing anyway, but I suspect they would'nt think so?! There are some lovely wheaten lurchers out there that look VERY like deerhounds....

BTW I recently went to Abbotsford where Sir Walter Scott had commissioned a ceramic model of 'Maida' his favourite deerhound - and she had white all over her neck and shoulders! I often wonder why this is a problem in the breed too? If its OK on the chest why not on the shoulders? It obviously was'nt considered a problem in Sir Walter Scott's day, and that's when they were using them for hunting properly!


That's because Maida wasn't a Deerhound - he was a first cross Deerhound x either Pyrennean Mountain Dog or Tibetan Mastiff, depending on what source you read. I would have thugh the PMD was more likely, myself, and that would account for the white. The standard is very clear about white above the throat being an issue, probably because it harks back to the Beardie and Borzoi crosses that were tried in the 19th century.

As for reintroducing wheaten, it would be lovely to see a fawn Deerhound, but it would take an out-cross to a breed that carries fawn - Greyhound or Whippet spring to mind - to produce it and I doubt the Kennel Club would be too thrilled. I think we just have to accept that the colour has been lost.

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8 years 1 week ago #28596 by Trowsahound
Trowsahound replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Is that right? How fascinating, so when he called them 'the most perfect creature of heaven' he was actually talking about a crossbreed?!!

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8 years 1 week ago #28621 by Ironstone
Ironstone replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
In addition to the issue of loss of coat colours in deerhounds, I have noticed a few who have sparse face furnishings - not much in the way of eyebrows and/or beards, and rather thin manes too. I wonder if we shall be seeing more of this in the future?

BTW I read recently on another deerhound forum that we regularly over estimate the height of our deerhounds. It could be that they're not nearly as tall as we imagine.

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8 years 1 week ago #28622 by Robb
Robb replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
I think that you may be right about the height of hounds. It's extremely difficult to measure them and the reading you get depends very much on the poise at the time.

From what I've read about Deerhounds they have evolved in 2 ways. The highland hounds tended to have long hair whilst the lowland hounds tend towards shorter coats. I'm no expert and have only observed most dogs I've seen at shows but there definately seem to be the 2 types. My own hound has thick long fur and a very thick mane but I know of many others with shorter coats. I think that their coats also become longer with age.

Rob B

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8 years 1 week ago #28623 by florent
florent replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Yellow is the color of my true love's hair
In the morning, when we rise
In the morning, when we rise
That's the time,
That's the time
I love the best

....


Freedom is a word I rarely use
Without thinking, mm-hmmm,
Without thinking, mm-hmmm,
Of the time,
Of the time
When I've been loved

Donovan

;)

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8 years 1 week ago #28628 by Trowsahound
Trowsahound replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Ref beards and manes - I met someone who'se hound had little facial hair compared to mine and was told it was because their companion dog regularly nibbled at his face! I also find that collars have a shedding effect on the manes! So maybe its not always to do with breeding!

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8 years 1 week ago #28635 by chrishafod
chrishafod replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Wow, what a storm.
Remenber that Irish wolhounds are lurchers, resulting from crossing dearhounds, mainly with Great Danes. Maida was a lurcher, usualy considered to be a mountain dog cross.
Sadly, too many dearhounds are so big, that they resemble wolfhounds.
My own dog is within breed standard [ a bitch, of 66lbs and 29 inches ]. She was bred as a working dog, the rest or the litter, being in the USA,coyote hunting. I have had arguments with people, who think she is too small to be a deerhound. In the 19th century, a dog over 30 inches,was considered too big, as they lost speed on the uphill run and lacked agility.
A good deerhound, should have the speed of a greyound, but with far greater agility and a bigger jaw, the nose of a blood hound and an intelligence, surparsing all other dogs [brave deerhouds died] all in a dog, under 30inches.
I will repeat, the thrust of, my earlier posts; the longest coated deerhounds, by far, were the greys, so,despite their tendancy, to lighter hind quarters, they became favoured, by show breeders, for their appearance.
I would be very wary about out crossing to greyhounds. Having one of each, I can say they are totaly different dogs and I cannot see anything of value, that such a cross would bring, to deerhounds, who, in every respect, except a laid back nature,are far superior dogs.
In the photos, that set this off, I was saddened to see that all the dogs had deformed back legs, like German Shepherds. All the old pictures of deerhuonds, show a dog, standing straight on it's back legs, as you you would expect of the canine world's ultimate athelete. I think that the breed standard tried to differentiate a deerhound back, from a greyhound's. The former drops, from the shoulder, rises over the loins and drops sharply, to the base of the tail; it is a back, full of coiled up kinetic power; the latter is quite level, linked to driving those massive rear thighs. Somehow, the standard has been interperated as back legs that project out. With such a rare dog, I worry, that whis could spell disaster.

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8 years 1 week ago #28660 by chook
chook replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
chrishafod wrote:

Wow, what a storm.
Remenber that Irish wolhounds are lurchers, resulting from crossing dearhounds, mainly with Great Danes. Maida was a lurcher, usualy considered to be a mountain dog cross.
Sadly, too many dearhounds are so big, that they resemble wolfhounds.
My own dog is within breed standard [ a bitch, of 66lbs and 29 inches ]. She was bred as a working dog, the rest or the litter, being in the USA,coyote hunting. I have had arguments with people, who think she is too small to be a deerhound. In the 19th century, a dog over 30 inches,was considered too big, as they lost speed on the uphill run and lacked agility.
A good deerhound, should have the speed of a greyound, but with far greater agility and a bigger jaw, the nose of a blood hound and an intelligence, surparsing all other dogs [brave deerhouds died] all in a dog, under 30inches.
I will repeat, the thrust of, my earlier posts; the longest coated deerhounds, by far, were the greys, so,despite their tendancy, to lighter hind quarters, they became favoured, by show breeders, for their appearance.
I would be very wary about out crossing to greyhounds. Having one of each, I can say they are totaly different dogs and I cannot see anything of value, that such a cross would bring, to deerhounds, who, in every respect, except a laid back nature,are far superior dogs.
In the photos, that set this off, I was saddened to see that all the dogs had deformed back legs, like German Shepherds. All the old pictures of deerhuonds, show a dog, standing straight on it's back legs, as you you would expect of the canine world's ultimate athelete. I think that the breed standard tried to differentiate a deerhound back, from a greyhound's. The former drops, from the shoulder, rises over the loins and drops sharply, to the base of the tail; it is a back, full of coiled up kinetic power; the latter is quite level, linked to driving those massive rear thighs. Somehow, the standard has been interperated as back legs that project out. With such a rare dog, I worry, that whis could spell disaster.




The Deerhound has already been out crossed to a greyhound, miss noble did it
and as far as i know of there are quite a few decendents from this breeding,
although the breeding will be verry dilute now.
kilbournedeerhounds.com/H...20PEDIGREES.htm

Jane

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8 years 1 week ago #28661 by Ironstone
Ironstone replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
chrishafod wrote:

Wow, what a storm.
Remenber that Irish wolhounds are lurchers, resulting from crossing dearhounds, mainly with Great Danes. Maida was a lurcher, usualy considered to be a mountain dog cross.
Sadly, too many dearhounds are so big, that they resemble wolfhounds.


Ha! :ohmy: :laugh: I never thought of IWs as lurchers but you make an excellent point chrishafod. I too understood that IWs had been refreshed with Great Dane blood long ago. That is why the muzzle of the IW as well as the ears look like Danes. As far as your view that deerhounds have become so big as to resemble IWs, well, I respectfully part ways with you there. :dry: But of course we don't see the same deerhounds do we?

Ironstone Deerhounds

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8 years 1 week ago #28662 by hairybeasty
hairybeasty replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Do I smell a debate?...Going to have to pop back soon.. :P ;)

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8 years 1 week ago #28664 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Okay, which well known Deerhound breeder and judge quoted this, in the UK, in 2008?
("Ironstone" and others that frequent Deerhound-List will find it familiar.)

"I think the Deerhound as I knew it, which is… 37 years when I first came into the breed, I think with very, very few exceptions that type of Deerhound has gone. I think if there isn’t an awful lot of hard thought and careful planning, they are going to lose the Greyhoundy type of Deerhound, because they are tending more and more to resemble the Irish Wolfhound. And my favourite quote is the opening line of the standard: “… resembles a rough coated Greyhound of larger size and bone”.

And:-

" ... No, at one time, ... I went to a show and the pair of us walked past Deerhounds lying in the aisle, as they did in those days. This was about maybe 12or 15 years ago. We walked past this aisle and we both went straight past, because we thought what was lying there was Wolfhounds… and they were Deerhounds! Now, 20 years ago that wouldn’t happen! There was a real, real difference between Deerhounds and Wolfhounds. You could look at the occasional Wolfhound and think “That’s too light and Deerhound-y!”, but you never looked at a Deerhound and said “Is that a Wolfhound?”


It's not the first time, and will not be the last time that such a comparison has been made.

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8 years 1 week ago #28665 by Ironstone
Ironstone replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Oh dear, the pressure, the pressure! Would you be referring to the interview of deerhound breeder and judge Pat Aird ("Sherval") from Oliver Fritsch's article in the May/June 2008 issue of The Claymore Richard?

(I hope I'm eligible for some sort of prize here. Chocolate would be fine :P )

Ironstone Deerhounds

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8 years 1 week ago #28666 by florent
florent replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Deerhounds, and every sighthounds, are fossilized lurchers.
Each dog is a mongrel. "Pure breed" is a sordid phantasm and, in my opinion, the big mistake of moderns dogs societies (KC, Fci, ...)
To support Richard in this difficult moment, ;) , i would to testify that it was probably as disappointing to discover all that our favorite breed is unable to do nowadays for people who really test deerhounds, as it is unbearable to believe it, and to accept it for people who live in the breed-heroic-legend.
There are some correct balanced moderns deerhounds, But it is a simple problem of weight, for dogs, over 35 kg speed and endurance decline. Working hounds, working sighthounds, working shepherds dogs,... are cumulative evidence.
Losing colour... Sid said; " ... I think we just have to accept that the colour has been lost."
Losing working ability, losing health, losing natural whelped, losing reasonable longevity,...
Do we say ; " ... we just have to accept that..." ?
Success and acomplishment (behavior, aesthetics points, and above all perpetuate the breed...) of the past breeders should not blind us.
For some breeds there is an official "endurance test", translate.google.fr/trans...m/endurance.htm , can we really think most of deerhounds are able to do that ?

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8 years 1 week ago #28667 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Well, I did suggest that you would be familiar with it, as we have just had a similar discussion on the Deerhound-List concerning coarseness and over-size in the modern Deerhound.
So that chocolate will have to wait I'm afraid :)

With reference to Florent's last remarks. No, we shouldn't have to accept it. But since our breed's profession is lost to us, and the original type of dog has gone, it looks as if we have little choice. There has been a persistent red thread through the modern history of our breed, of people cautioning against the increase in height and consequent loss of function. Each time it is swept under the carpet - because we do not use our dogs for their original function.

I think when I seriously lure coursed in Europe my Deerhounds could have done the endurance test (?) - I trained them on the cycle, but never more than for half an hour at a time, interval training, with sprints, trots and walks. They are first and foremost sprint animals for rough terrain, they worked for about four minutes a time - as has been quoted here before.

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