Colours of Scottish Deerhound's

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8 years 11 months ago #11414 by camuscuin
camuscuin created the topic: Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Can anyone tell me - How, why, when did we loose the alternative colour of Scottish Deerhound ? EG Fawn, Red, Wheaten ? Were the lighter colours less successful at hunting deer given that they blended into the background less easily than the brindles & blacks ? :unsure: :unsure:

Kaz

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8 years 11 months ago #11425 by Graizelund
Graizelund replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
there was an interesting article in the Newsletter some months ago about tracing back the last wheaten.....I always find it interesting that a lot of old prints etc seem to shown the fawn colours

Skoll was recently stripped and he is a light silver-grey, and under his coat he has cream brindle, but when his coat grows all you see is grey

I've only ever seen grey Deeries, has anyone got any photos of different colours??

:)

~~ Liz ~~

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8 years 10 months ago #11469 by Lurch8252
Lurch8252 replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Welome back Florent, wondered where you had gone!!

The other colours were beautful, what a shame they are no longer around, though they are with the Wolfies

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8 years 10 months ago #11510 by florent
florent replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Lurch8252 wrote:

Welome back Florent, wondered where you had gone!!

The other colours were beautful, what a shame they are no longer around, though they are with the Wolfies

wondered where you had gone!!

sorry it's impossible... :whistle:

Very funny, But i think loosing these colours is one of the bigs mistake that past deerhounds breeders did. I respect them but i cannot think all they did was perfect, as all we do is not too. ;)

Before questions about the others mistake i mean, i clarify:
1 -Loosing fawn colour and no brindle colours as black, and fixing so much G gene wich give grizzle.
They were "overwhelmed" by brindle and loose other typical colours
2 -Crossing with Borzoï, probably more than 3 times...
That had give flat ribs (so there is so many deerhounds which can go across railings), wrong topline (as dromedary with the summit on back and loin junction and not in the middle of the loin), bad feet (long and flat), ...
3 -Increase size in the successives standart.
So the breed loose ability to hunt, and health problem increase.
4 -Wanting to much lenght of coat, or more exactly "sanctionning" short harsh coat.
Génerally more the coat is long, more the coat qualities disappear(against rain, damp, dust, etc...)
5 -No mention about lenght of body and ratio with size.
So we have so many deerhounds too short in body or/and to straight in angulations.
6 -No strict care to keep a lightly tipped pastern. This is a big problem which give jolt in the front mouvement.
...

I am severe because i love so much this breed and for me it is absolutly impossible to be in high admiration about our ancestors actions, i really think they did so many faults (as we do), so i try to be realist and not devotee.
I thank ancestors because they give us a so nice breed with a such nice temperament.
Humble in front of the flag, never proud, never shame.

Sorry for my poor English.

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8 years 10 months ago #11561 by loopylou
loopylou replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
I am always very interested in our 'lost' colours.
Especially as we had one in the family .. I think....
Here is a picture of Lady - mother of Lufha - as it says on the back of the photograph.
My grandad gave the picture to me and firstly I am trying to establish if she is a Deerhound and secondly if so, what her lines were...

www.lureracing.com
Fast fun on four paws!
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8 years 10 months ago #11562 by loopylou
loopylou replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
I am always very interested in our 'lost' colours.
Especially as we had one in the family .. I think....
Here is a picture of Lady - mother of Lufha - as it says on the back of the photograph.
My grandad gave the picture to me and firstly I am trying to establish if she is a Deerhound and secondly if so, what her lines were...

www.lureracing.com
Fast fun on four paws!
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8 years 10 months ago #11563 by loopylou
loopylou replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
And I sholud add the photo is from pre 1900's!

www.lureracing.com
Fast fun on four paws!

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8 years 10 months ago #11582 by camuscuin
camuscuin replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
She is beautiful, & certainly looks like a deerhound. I'm not sure how you would go about finding out her lines & do hope that someone on the forum could help you here. What about where your grandad lived at that time i.e. where his dog was born ? What colour was she ? difficult to tell on a black & white photo ! Fawn or Red or ?

Kaz

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8 years 10 months ago #11610 by scottishpet
scottishpet replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
I find this topic so interesting. Do the fawn or red colous show up from time to time in current lines? Is there a difference in frequency in deerhounds with this trait between North America and the UK or other parts of the world?

Such a newbie to the breed...but i am eager to know more.

Cheers!
Pet

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8 years 10 months ago #11613 by cassandra1260
cassandra1260 replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Great picture...sure looks very Borzoi...

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8 years 10 months ago #11812 by Bonnie
Bonnie replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
a friend of mine has a bitch who was wheaten until fairly recently, she became darker, but for the first 4 - 5 years of her life this dog was almost a blonde! I'll see if I can dig up some photos of her. I know that the kennel where she comes from, has also bred fawn and dark brown coloured hounds. Our dog has a back which is entirely red. We should have called him Rufus!

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8 years 10 months ago #11819 by camuscuin
camuscuin replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Were the other pup's in the same litter as your friends bitch the same colour, & were her parents the more traditional grey brindle colour do you know ? I wonder if the wheaten colour etc returns very rarely at random today & from how many generations back did it derive ?

Kaz

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8 years 10 months ago #11842 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
How, why, when?
It has often been stated in the historic literature on Deerhounds that "quality is in the darker specimens".
Possibly to remove all suspicions of cross-breeding, (white and other markings), and with reference to the preceding remark, + distinguishing the breed from the IW, around the turn of the 19th/20th century they rigorously selected for grey dogs (which are genetically "brindle").
Due to that breeding pressure to select 'grey' Deerhounds, the famous other colours/genes, were 'bred out' or lost. Judges remarks in the UK Kennel Gazette suggest that this had already occurred around 1920.
Geneticist, Reinhard Joedicke, one time breeder "Secretis", has analysed all of this in his publication on coat colours, both in the UK Newsletter and USA The Claymore.
Richard
Great website Florian!

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7 years 9 months ago #25667 by chrishafod
chrishafod replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
I am researching an article on the history of the breed.
19th century paintings are a great source of information and depict dogs with much shorter coats than present day dogs. I would say that Lisa's photopraph is very typical, as to coat and form, of many of the dogs depicted and described, in the 19th century.
However a trawl through Landseer paintings, throws up an interesting fact; the grey dogs, while not as shaggy as present day dogs, had significantly longer coats, than the other colours.
I have concluded that this is the reason for the loss of the other colours. The show ring favoured a profuse coat, so grey came to dominate the breeding stock.

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7 years 9 months ago #25670 by houndy
houndy replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Hiya Chrishafod :) Good to see you on here - havent seen you online for ages! Hope you are keeping well ;) :)

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7 years 9 months ago #26190 by chrishafod
chrishafod replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Hi Houndy,
Thanks for the welcome. Various issues in my life took over, So it is great to be back. :)
I have been reading Mr. Scrope's book on Deer Stalking and among the huge ammount of valuable information in it, is the fact that the grey dogs, while valued for their coat, were more slightly built in the hind quarters, than the other colours.
This is clearly why, the breeders of hunting dogs, in the 19th century, prefered the other colours.

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7 years 9 months ago #26196 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
I'd have to repeat my remarks in my last post on this topic, see above, "How, why and when".
The dark-grey hounds were traditionally chosen by show people, who considered them to demonstrate more quality than the 'coloured' specimens.
The hunting fraternity often preferred a contrasting colour that would be more visible against the green, or the dark hill, this is part of the reason for the McNiels' preference (as quoted by Scrope)for a fawn or yellow dog - often with a dark mask. See Buskar by Landseer. A colour variety which was praised as far back as the 15th century, for all greyhounds, by The Master Of Game.

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7 years 9 months ago #26200 by loopylou
loopylou replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
The zoological museum in Tring Hertfordshire has a stuffed Deerhound from, i think 1892 or thereabouts.
It is very interesting as it is very broad especially behind, grey and strong looking although you would never mistake it for a IW. The main reason for mentioning it is that is grey not dark which seems unusual for that era as in the pictures as has been mentioned before - they are darker.
If anybody gets a chance to go there you should. They have quite a few breeds there and many don't look to much like their modern cousins.... :unsure:

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Fast fun on four paws!

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7 years 9 months ago #26216 by Richard
Richard replied the topic: Re:Colours of Scottish Deerhound's
Nice one.

This is "Marquis of Lorne" (Fingal II x Princess Brenda) 1891-1903. Fairly close to the famous "Lord of the Isles".
Unfortunately the original skeletons are often not (completely or properly) in those specimens, or they are poorly/incorrectly constructed. We should be careful with interpreting their original live conformation.
It's colour, for the time, I would think is correct.

The skins of the dogs in the Tring collection are a DNA treasure trove.

See "DOGS, of the last hundred years at the British Museum (Natural History)" by Kim Dennis-Bryan and Juliet Clutton-Brock. 1988

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