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IBD in deerhounds

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6 years 10 months ago #41607 by Wanda
IBD in deerhounds was created by Wanda
I wanted to know if anybody has made experience with IBD in deehrounds. I know there are some breeds that are prone for that desease like german shepherd, the bearded collie or the boxer ... just to mention a few. My Fiona developed IBD and my Wanda suffered from it, too. As I learnt, the inflammatory bowel desease is to a great part an immundefiency and the other parts are genetically and may be an intolerance against the own intestinal flora. Just as Morbus Crohn in humans it can be the hole gastrointestinal tract thats effected and other organs can be affected, too, like the eyes and the skin. I read somewhere that deerhounds are prone for allergies but could not get any information on IBD. As our hounds are special and forinstance some breeds have special forms of IBD, I just wanted to get more infromation on that theme. In general the allergic reactions increase in all breeds and in human.

I read the articles of Dr. Dillberger and Dr. Westermarck about Tylosin-responsive-Diarrhea. There where quite sucsessful with the method in some dogs after a longer treatment the diarrhoe stopped forever and they where healthy again. Others had to get low doses of the antibiotic for their hole life, others need Prdnisone. We have put Fiona on Metronidazole, that is an antibiotic, too, but the main effect is anti-inflammatory. We feed just vension and potatoes and perhaps, if it is a kind of allergic reaction to food, it will work out quite well when we put off the Metronidazole.

Sorry, it is not so easy to get all the information over to you in English, but I hope it is understandable. So if anybody has information about that desease in deerhounds, I would be glad to read about it.

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6 years 10 months ago #41612 by Pho
Replied by Pho on topic IBD in deerhounds
Hi Wanda!

I'm not the an expert like yourself with regards to IBD. My experience is with dogs having chronic diarrhea that their owners had trouble with and did not go to the point of an IBD diagnosis because the following did the trick for them:

1/2 banana with 1 Tablespoon of plain or vanilla yogurt with meals

I did a little research into if this may help you and found the information below which is why I decided to reply to your post.
The banana will help with electrolytes lost due to diarrhea and the yogurt helps with "good" microflora.

Gut flora in IBD

Enteric microflora profiles vary considerably between active inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD) and healthy conditions. Intestinal microflora may partake in the pathogenesis of IBD by one or some ways: specific pathogenic infection induces abnormal intestinal mucosal inflammation; aberrant microflora components trigger the onset of IBD; abnormal host immune response loses normal immune tolerance to luminal components; luminal antigens permeate through the defective mucosal barrier into mucosal lamina propria and induce abnormal inflammatory response.

Animal models of IBD, which allow the effects above, show that changes in the gut flora will cause inflammation. However, the proof of the mechanism is not certain. As such there is some good evidence that the IBDs are an aggressive response by the body against certain gut microflora. The mechanism of the inflammatory response and the genetics of the patient are important in this respect.

Cummings JH, Macfarlane GT, Macfarlane S. Intestinal bacteria and ulcerative colitis. Curr Issues Intest Microbiol. 2003 Mar;4(1):9-20. (No specific pathogen has been identified as causal and the disease is widely believed to occur as the result of a genetically determined, but abnormal immune response to commensal bacteria. When compared with healthy people, UC patients have increased levels of mucosal IgG directed against the normal microflora. Studies of mucosal bacterial populations in UC indicate that there may be increased numbers of organisms, but reduced counts of "protective" bacteria such as lactobacilli and bifidobacteria. In animal models of colitis, antibiotics, particularly metronidazole, clindamycin, ciprofloxacin and the combination of vancomycin/impinemem protect against UC, especially if given before the onset of inflammation. This to some degree is important in that it suggest that the inflammation is secondary to the gut flora changes rather than the other way around)

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6 years 10 months ago #41614 by Wanda
Replied by Wanda on topic IBD in deerhounds
Thank you very much for your answer. In the beginning of her diarrhea we tried lots of things, the bananas - just as you wrote, are very helpful for some hounds, but Fiona does not like bananas and she does not tolerate any milk or yoghurt-products. We even tried a carrot-soup called the "Moro┬┤sche Karottensuppe" that is carrots cooked over an hour and they work out fantastic for the most dogs with diarrhea, and for people, too, because they have an antibiotical effect. But with Fiona it got even worse, she does not tolerate any carrots ... But we had some good effects with feta cheese and that works for other dogs, too. We had an elimination diet, tried kangaroo, that worked at first but when we added parsnip, her output was not to good, the parsnip is root vegetable just like carrots and she seems to react against that.

It is really interesting to read, that the gut flora is so important and may also be a cause of the IBD. And that Metronidazole is helping - we can confirm that. We will give her Metronidazole for three months now - and we do hope, that it helps, because some dogs are cured after that treatment, but this is seldom ... She has no diarrhea under the Metronidazole and her output is nearly perfect.

Perhaps it is worth thinking a bit more about the gut flora. They of course took samples of the gut flora during the endoscopy and found nothing unusual ... but perhaps we should do something for her gut flora after the treatment.

So thank you again for sending this information.

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6 years 10 months ago #41615 by Pho
Replied by Pho on topic IBD in deerhounds
Glad to hear that things are better with the current treatment. My girls cannot take carrots either.

Just FYI, for many dogs its the texture of the banana that throws them off. If texture is the issue and not taste, since you are feeding potato, a little banana mashed in with the potato might help if the diarrha returns. Also the probotics in yogurt can be found in tablet form. A piece of a probotic tablet in something that does not upset her system (feta cheese) might be of interest for you.

Finally, well done. You are definately on top of things.
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6 years 10 months ago #41622 by Wanda
Replied by Wanda on topic IBD in deerhounds
Thank you again, Pho, for the answer. I just detected the "Thank you Button" - did not see it before. Well, the hint with the banana is worth a try, perhaps it is the texture ... And we have planed to give her some probiotics in tabletform when the treatment with Metronidazol is over. Our alternative practitioner has recommended this, too. I really hope it will all work out - we do have a good chance, because it is a kind of milder form of IBD, not the worst form that my Wanda had. Perhaps it was good to detect it early.
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6 years 10 months ago #41624 by Pho
Replied by Pho on topic IBD in deerhounds
Wanda, I really think 2014 is going to be a very good year for you and your baby. You will see an end to the IBD.

I did a little more research for you. Here in the US, the National Institute of Health has published some in vitro studies regarding Metronidazol and lactobacilli. The findings indicated that depending on the dose of Metronidazol the lactobcilli were either suppressed or not..

Thus, I think that depending on the dosage of Metronidazol given, one may or may not be selectively encouraging the population of the gut microflora toward "good" microflora. This may also be one of the many reasons why the Metronidazol may or may not help in IBD when treatment stops since the selectivity of the Metronidazol is dose sensitive.

You may wish to take a look on the web for Metronidazol and lactobacilli and speak with your sources to consider adding the probotics a little at a time while on the Metronidazol. Three months is a very long time to be on antibiotics and there are some nutrients such as biotin that require a healthy gut microflora.
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6 years 10 months ago #41625 by Wanda
Replied by Wanda on topic IBD in deerhounds
That sounds great and I hope you are right regarding IBD and my baby :-).

I think in America they are always a step further and so I am very thankful for your research. That really sounds logical. I will keep searching using the hints you gave me. Thanks a lot. Three months is a long time in deed. The good thing with the Metronidazol is, that is does not build out resistant strains of bacteria so easily like other antibiotics. But used in high dosage and for a longer period you have the danger of nerve damage or paralysis, but it is seen not too often and it is recedes again after a short time. And for sure your point with the nutrients is very important, and I will talk to the vet again soon and I will ask her about the probiotics. So we do have a plan and hopefully it works out.

Thank you so much, I am glad that I decided to come back to this wonderful Forum.
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6 years 10 months ago #41628 by stussy
Replied by stussy on topic IBD in deerhounds
I have suffered from the human version of this having been diagnosed with Chrons several years ago... however mine tends to get flared up by stress, and the last year I have been medication free and with a very happy tummy. the problem being an upset tum = stress to innards = flare ups = upset tum ... its a visciuos circle and difficult to control!

i found the best thing for me was immune reducing tablets then a very very plain diet (for people absolutely nothing but chicken and rice) for a good 6 months to let the innards recover, I have heard of a lot of people have positive results with this attitude with dogs also, the main headache being I found with my old DH girl was keeping the weight on her which is not ideal with dodgy innards

Good luck and I hope you have some joy :)
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6 years 10 months ago #41639 by Brodie
Replied by Brodie on topic IBD in deerhounds
hope you stay well too Stussy :)

Wigster n San x

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6 years 10 months ago #41642 by Wanda
Replied by Wanda on topic IBD in deerhounds
Thank you for sharing your experience Stussy. I hope you will stay well - it must be a hard time you have gone through. Stress is an important thing, just as you wrote the inflammation will come up after stress. I have a kind of diary, where I note everything, her output, what she ate, and of course when something ununsual or stressful happens. After great stress I can wait for the results. Well, I try to keep stress away from her but I cannot keep her under a cheese cover. And yes, the weight is an other problem. Fiona is a small kind of deerhound, and a picky eater and at the moment she puts on some weight, she lost three Kilos after the endoscopy and looked so skinny. She has about 30 Kilos again, and I am quite happy with that.

With the immune reducing tablets we had good results with Wanda, but not for long, her inflammation was so bad, she had no chance to get better. I hope we do not need too much medication for Fiona.

So good luck for you too, Stussy.

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